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  #1  
Old Jan 14, '09, 8:44 pm
Jonatello Jonatello is offline
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Default Why blood sacrifice?

Is there a good explanation out there?

Why did the Jews, before Jesus, need to shed the blood of an animal to please God? I mean, we all can obviously see how it pretty much resembles all sorts of other ancient pagan traditions from all over the world.

What makes this one "really the will of God" and what did God actually want with the slaughtered animal's blood?

Moving forward, how does this relate to Jesus seemingly needing to mimic that pagan ritual literally to save mankind?

Do you think maybe there is something truly in the ripping and tearing of Jesus' flesh that, through the actual relationship spiritual has with physical, unlocks and activates a real life-saving response, maybe by physically literally joining God's soul with our bodies?

And then maybe, since "time" is all seen at once from God's perspective, people "before" Jesus' walk in our flesh were somehow tapping into this moment in some small area of their consciousness (where physical and spiritual are possibly bridged) and, feeling a vague sense of the need for this occurrence, commenced to sacrificing men, animals, etc for God(s) as they understood Him to be?

But then still...was God actually *sanctioning* these other crucifixion "dress-rehearsals"?

were non-Jesus sacrifices crucifixion dress-rehearsals?

was Jesus' sacrifice a decided mimic of their idea of blood sacrifices?

or was the blood sacrifice of non-Jesus life truly willed by God, and why?
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  #2  
Old Jan 16, '09, 11:45 am
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CHRISTINE77 CHRISTINE77 is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

Blood sacrifice is really a way to say thank you to God for providing the food and the world that we live in. God didn't need the portions of the meat that was sacrificed to him, actually the people ate it. But God does want to be remembered and thanked. Back then, people had to slaughter their own meat so they were much closer to life and death. Blood is holy because it is the source of life. But even during the OT days, God said he was tired of the sacrifices, he just wanted people to turn towards him and be righteous.
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  #3  
Old Jan 16, '09, 12:00 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonatello View Post
Why did the Jews, before Jesus, need to shed the blood of an animal to please God? I mean, we all can obviously see how it pretty much resembles all sorts of other ancient pagan traditions from all over the world.
This is exactly why.

The problem with your question is that you are viwing the practice with the hindsight of a very different world.

In the ancient world, everybody demonstrated sacrificing to the gods. This included not only animals but also people.

God's first challenge, with the Israelites, was to reorient their sacrifices away from pagan gods to God. And you have only to read the OT to see what an enormous challenge that was. So the sacrifices that God demanded of the Israelites were of a very familiar form (though God did prohibit the sacrifice of humans) designed to substitute one for the other with a minimum of resistence.
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  #4  
Old Jan 21, '09, 3:23 am
fellowChristian fellowChristian is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

Go back to the fall of mankind. Adam and Eve turned their back on God a.k.a disobeyed a.k.a sinned.

Because of their sin blood was shed.

Genesis 3
21The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.


Where do you think the skin came from?Anyway right after that we read about the offerings of Cain and Abel. Cain's was from the soil and Abel's was from his flock.


Makes sense to me
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  #5  
Old Jan 21, '09, 5:00 am
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Eucharisted Eucharisted is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonatello View Post
Is there a good explanation out there?

Why did the Jews, before Jesus, need to shed the blood of an animal to please God? I mean, we all can obviously see how it pretty much resembles all sorts of other ancient pagan traditions from all over the world.

What makes this one "really the will of God" and what did God actually want with the slaughtered animal's blood?

Moving forward, how does this relate to Jesus seemingly needing to mimic that pagan ritual literally to save mankind?

Do you think maybe there is something truly in the ripping and tearing of Jesus' flesh that, through the actual relationship spiritual has with physical, unlocks and activates a real life-saving response, maybe by physically literally joining God's soul with our bodies?

And then maybe, since "time" is all seen at once from God's perspective, people "before" Jesus' walk in our flesh were somehow tapping into this moment in some small area of their consciousness (where physical and spiritual are possibly bridged) and, feeling a vague sense of the need for this occurrence, commenced to sacrificing men, animals, etc for God(s) as they understood Him to be?

But then still...was God actually *sanctioning* these other crucifixion "dress-rehearsals"?

were non-Jesus sacrifices crucifixion dress-rehearsals?

was Jesus' sacrifice a decided mimic of their idea of blood sacrifices?

or was the blood sacrifice of non-Jesus life truly willed by God, and why?
In Judaism, the animal sacrificed takes upon itself all the sins of Israel, and when it is sacrificed, it's blood spilled gives new life to the Israelites, because blood is the sacred seat or river of life (it is also because of this that Jews are forbidden from drinking blood). The Jewish sacrifice comes from the pagan sacrifice, which in turn comes from the first sacrifice offered to God by Adam and Eve's children. It is because of this that Judaism could say it existed since the beginning of mankind, in the way of offering prayers and sacrifices to God, not in the more structured and complex way it became as shown in the Book of Exodus.

God allowed sacrifices as signs of the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus. Everything in the ancient world pointed to Jesus, and everything of Jesus points to the world to come. It's how God reveals Himself to man.
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  #6  
Old Jan 21, '09, 5:34 am
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonatello View Post
Is there a good explanation out there?

Why did the Jews, before Jesus, need to shed the blood of an animal to please God? I mean, we all can obviously see how it pretty much resembles all sorts of other ancient pagan traditions from all over the world.

What makes this one "really the will of God" and what did God actually want with the slaughtered animal's blood?

Moving forward, how does this relate to Jesus seemingly needing to mimic that pagan ritual literally to save mankind?

Do you think maybe there is something truly in the ripping and tearing of Jesus' flesh that, through the actual relationship spiritual has with physical, unlocks and activates a real life-saving response, maybe by physically literally joining God's soul with our bodies?

And then maybe, since "time" is all seen at once from God's perspective, people "before" Jesus' walk in our flesh were somehow tapping into this moment in some small area of their consciousness (where physical and spiritual are possibly bridged) and, feeling a vague sense of the need for this occurrence, commenced to sacrificing men, animals, etc for God(s) as they understood Him to be?

But then still...was God actually *sanctioning* these other crucifixion "dress-rehearsals"?

were non-Jesus sacrifices crucifixion dress-rehearsals?

was Jesus' sacrifice a decided mimic of their idea of blood sacrifices?

or was the blood sacrifice of non-Jesus life truly willed by God, and why?
Good post. Thanks

Jesus did not mimic anything. What Jesus did throughout His entire life was to make perfect, that which had taken place in the past.

The use of "sacrfice" as you applied it, requires a "letting of blood."

The reason for this, is to offer a life (going back to Abraham and Issiac) was alway's understood as the "supreme giving up".

So God gave up His Son, Jesus gave up His Life, because God has strived for a relationship with us from the begaining. God to Adam: "Where are you?" and God's selection and saving Noah, to choosing Abram, Moses, the Judges and Kings and the Prophets, is all about God wanting a long term relationship with us.

Christ Death is an Offering to The Father, on our behalf.

God bless you!
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  #7  
Old Feb 16, '09, 10:56 pm
Gerard Nadal Gerard Nadal is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

Our sin merits death. We commit spiritual suicide when we turn our backs on God. There is nothing that we can do to completely heal the rift. God's Holiness demands justice. We start there.

Now, when the Jews sacrificed the animal, they did not receive forgiveness unless they ate the flesh of the animal. That is to say, that they were in communion with it. Uppermost in their mind during the sacrifice must have been the realization that his is the fate that they merited. This of course prefigured Jesus' sacrificial death.

God's Holiness demands justice. If not our death, then what, or whose? God Himself dies in our place and feeds us on his sacrificed, now glorified body in the Eucharist. See John 6.

His death culminates in the Resurrection, which is our assurance of everlasting life. Read the texts of all four Eucharistic Prayers, it's all in there.
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  #8  
Old Feb 17, '09, 12:28 am
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Earnest Bunbury Earnest Bunbury is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

I believe it was Dr. Scott Hahn who said that God didn't require the sacrifice of animals, as their death can't remove sin, but that He knew that we required it do to guilt, a guilt of sin that built up would lead to despair. This prefigured the Pascal sacrifice to come. God called for this sacrifice in the Old Testament.

The Franciscans and the theologian John Duns Scotus (1266-1308) deny a debt or payment was required. This is a feature in my parish and one I disagree with. One hand-out, with an imprimatur, insinuated the apostles "got it wrong" in highlighting a blood atonement. Well, this is a fixture of Catholic dissent as those in authority, when not meeting the needs of the people or not agreeing with the sensus fidelium (sense of the faithful) are branded as wrong and should conform themselves to the vox populi (opinion of the people).

Franciscan theologians say blood atonement makes God's redemptive action a "reaction" to human sin instead of a "perfect and utterly free initiative of love." Of course, BOTH can be correct at the same time. St. Aquinas is not more correct than St. Francis as they are both saints. The error could be in rejection, not acceptance. Those who reject blood atonement could be doing it for the purpose of downplaying the authority of the Church. Those who reject at-one-ment of a loving atonement of incarnation can over emphasize sacrifice as a "works" philosophy of justification. Do we limit God by the rejection of Jesus showing the way of perfect love for the Father by obedience to the point of dieing on the Cross? Without a blood atonement, the "Blood and Water which gushed forth the Heart of Jesus as a fount of Mercy for us" (St Faustina) would seem to be only a symbol. Thus both views have merit at the same time.
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  #9  
Old Feb 17, '09, 7:52 am
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Mystic Warrior Mystic Warrior is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonatello View Post
Is there a good explanation out there?
You have many questions in this one post, so I'll give short replies for space sake. First, blood is life, symbolically and physically.

Quote:
Why did the Jews, before Jesus, need to shed the blood of an animal to please God? I mean, we all can obviously see how it pretty much resembles all sorts of other ancient pagan traditions from all over the world.
God instituted animal sacrifice for two reasons as I see it. To show the Israelites how serious their sin was by taking the life of the animal and because it was a pre-cursor to the Savior shedding His blood to remove all sin.

Quote:
What makes this one "really the will of God" and what did God actually want with the slaughtered animal's blood?
Quite simply, the Bible teaches it and so does the Church. That's all we need.

Quote:
Moving forward, how does this relate to Jesus seemingly needing to mimic that pagan ritual literally to save mankind?
Who is mimicing who? Shedding of blood came initially at the Garden of Eden. Seems like the pagans are the ones who mimiced the first humans.

Quote:
Do you think maybe there is something truly in the ripping and tearing of Jesus' flesh that, through the actual relationship spiritual has with physical, unlocks and activates a real life-saving response, maybe by physically literally joining God's soul with our bodies?
I don't think I understand the question.

Quote:
And then maybe, since "time" is all seen at once from God's perspective, people "before" Jesus' walk in our flesh were somehow tapping into this moment in some small area of their consciousness (where physical and spiritual are possibly bridged) and, feeling a vague sense of the need for this occurrence, commenced to sacrificing men, animals, etc for God(s) as they understood Him to be?
Possibly, but that would be conjecture.

Quote:
But then still...was God actually *sanctioning* these other crucifixion "dress-rehearsals"?
God allows mankind to do all kinds of things. That doesn't mean He sanctions them.

Quote:
were non-Jesus sacrifices crucifixion dress-rehearsals?
I don't think so.

Quote:
was Jesus' sacrifice a decided mimic of their idea of blood sacrifices?
Whose idea of blood sacrifices? The Jews? It wasn't a mimic. It was a fulfilling of God's law. "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins".
Quote:
or was the blood sacrifice of non-Jesus life truly willed by God, and why?
You'll have to read Scripture to get a clear understanding of this. Begin with God clothing Adam and Eve, move through Cain and Abel, through the Mosaic Law to the death of Jesus.

MW
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  #10  
Old Feb 17, '09, 8:13 pm
mr3135 mr3135 is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

before the sacrifice of Christ, all those before who believed in sacirfice for the atonement of sins went to their death waiting for Jesus's own sacrifice to take them to paradise or heaven. At his resurection he took them with him. I believe animal sacrifice was an atonement for their guilt and Christ sacirfice was what took them to purgatory or heaven
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  #11  
Old Feb 18, '09, 12:09 pm
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

Quote:
=Jonatello;4669503]Is there a good explanation out there?

Why did the Jews, before Jesus, need to shed the blood of an animal to please God? I mean, we all can obviously see how it pretty much resembles all sorts of other ancient pagan traditions from all over the world.

Great question

Heb. 9: "
11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal "redemption".


"'Without the letting of Blood, there can be no PERFECT sacrifice."

Why? Because the "blood letting" killed the animal. In other words the animal gave its live in order to be sacrificed.

John 15: 13 ". 13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

A sacrifice of life which was held sacred, was considered to be a "perfect sacrifice." Thus they were giving to their PERFECT God, a PERFECT offering and a Perfect sacrifice!

Quote:
What makes this one "really the will of God" and what did God actually want with the slaughtered animal's blood?
Because God is TRIUNE! Only One Perfect and Perfectly shared Nature and Three Divine "Persons." Jesus did not become man, die on the Cross or Rise from the Dead by Himself..... Jesus did these things with and through The Father and Holy Spirit!

Quote:
Moving forward, how does this relate to Jesus seemingly needing to mimic that pagan ritual literally to save mankind?
A Perfect offering Of God,By God, and for God surpasses all previous offerings, in magnitude, eficacy, and merit. The magnitude of our collective sins required a PERFECT, THE MOST PERFECT sacrifice, and that is exactly what Jesus Provided.

But be care ful that you understand that this act does not assure our Salvation! Jesus in His own words (highlighted above) "Redeems" us! Salvation is a seperate issue, and a matter that requires OUR cooperation with Christ. (Heb. 9:12)

Divine Persons, sepetrate yet UNABLE TO BE SEPERATED.

Quote:
And then maybe, since "time" is all seen at once from God's perspective, people "before" Jesus' walk in our flesh were somehow tapping into this moment in some small area of their consciousness (where physical and spiritual are possibly bridged) and, feeling a vague sense of the need for this occurrence, commenced to sacrificing men, animals, etc for God(s) as they understood Him to be?
Facts: we a Born Once
Die ONCE
Noone assumes our bodies 1 Cor. 15: "50 This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, 9in other words we return to dust) nor does corruption inherit incorruption. That my friend is anti-biblical.

Quote:
But then still...was God actually *sanctioning* these other crucifixion "dress-rehearsals"?
Of course not! How can we know? By understanding Who and WHAT God is.

"God is and MUST be everything GOOD!"

However it is also true that everything that takes place is either:

1. Caused by God of it is GOOD?
2. Permitted by God, if it not, or atleast perceived by us as "not being good."

WHY?

Always for God's GREATER GLORY AND,
our possible sanctification.


Quote:
were non-Jesus sacrifices crucifixion dress-rehearsals?
Was Jesus' sacrifice a decided mimic of their idea of blood sacrifices? Or was the blood sacrifice of non-Jesus life truly willed by God, and why?
No, No and YES!

Love and prayers my friend in Christ,
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  #12  
Old Feb 26, '09, 11:29 am
khruuton khruuton is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

Great posts everyone! Very enlightening, and very humbling to see how much I need to learn as a Catholic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonatello View Post
Why did the Jews, before Jesus, need to shed the blood of an animal to please God? I mean, we all can obviously see how it pretty much resembles all sorts of other ancient pagan traditions from all over the world.

What makes this one "really the will of God" and what did God actually want with the slaughtered animal's blood?
From what I recall, and please correct me if I'm wrong gang...the blood of the sacrifice was sprinkled over the Ark of the Covenant. On top of the Ark was the "mercy seat", which was open to the items within the Ark. Specifically the 10 Commandments.

When the High Priest would take the blood of the sacrifice, he would sprinkle it over the commandments so as to "block the sins out" from the view of God. God would peer into the Ark, see the blood covering the sins and "not" see the sins.

It was a blood sacrifice.

But it seems to me this was done to help the Jews properly recognize the duty of the Messiah. The Jews should've understood what was meant by Christ being the sacrificial lamb. As Jesus points out to Nicodemus...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John 3: 14-15
And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in thedesert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.
But they were so laden in just "Jewish tradition" they lost focus on the prophecies of Sacred Scripture. Nicodemus and others were so caught up in the earthly hopes of the Messiah, they weren't able to grasp the Spiritual duty of Jesus.


Quote:
Moving forward, how does this relate to Jesus seemingly needing to mimic that pagan ritual literally to save mankind?
It wasn't that Jesus mimicked the actions. He added the much needed "Grace" required by man to have a desire to step away from our sinful nature.

When a Jewish person (or gentile) would atone for their sins with the High Priest, there was nothing to stop them from going out and just doing the same sin all over again.

By bringing Jesus down to fulfill the law and the prophecies, God institutes (and fulfills) man's ability to recognize his Creator. Jeremiah's New Covenant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremiah 31: 31-34
31 The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new convenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from teh land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD.

33 [b]But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. --->I will place it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people.<--- 34 No longer will they have need to teach their friends and kinsmen who to know the LORD. All, from least to greatest, shall know me, says the LORD, for I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sins no more.
This new covenant is Jesus. And Jesus brings Grace upon all us. Giving us the desire to please God and be Christlike. We have the ability to recognize our sins and this allows us to choose to not sin. So as not to offend God.

So this isn't a mimic IMO. An animal sacrifice couldn't cause such a spiritual change in mankind. Only God Himself can bring about such a change. Or a desire to change for God and stay away from sinful acts.

The Holy Spirit has been working the waters and the airwaves of the earth since "In the beginning". Other religions have been picking up on the "frequency" of God, but they couldn't pinpoint the exact message.

These traditions and rituals pagan religions were practicing were really precursors of what was to come.

God introduced Himself to the Jewish people...they were to spread the Gospel to other lands and that's why salvation came from the Jews.

By living as God decreed, other nations were able to see that Israel's God was the "One True God".

So really, it's not that Jesus' sacrifice is mimicking the pagan rituals. The pagan rituals came about from hearing God's message through nature, but not being able to discern it without the Holy Spirit.

In essence, that's all of our problems. lol If we don't have the Spirit, we can't discern the message.

God be with you on your journey and may the Grace of Jesus rest upon you!
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  #13  
Old Feb 26, '09, 4:41 pm
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Earnest Bunbury Earnest Bunbury is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by khruuton View Post
It wasn't that Jesus mimicked the actions. He added the much needed "Grace" required by man to have a desire to step away from our sinful nature.

So really, it's not that Jesus' sacrifice is mimicking the pagan rituals. The pagan rituals came about from hearing God's message through nature, but not being able to discern it without the Holy Spirit.
Welcome! Well, you got it pretty right.

As the Old Testament is prefigured in the New, Jesus' saving action is prefigured in the sprinkling of the blood on the mercy seat as evidenced also by the image of the angels at the head and foot where Jesus' body had been placed in the tomb, seen by Mary Magdalene in John 20:12, like the top of the Ark of the Covenant. It is the latter action that has power, the former, the blood of animals, that prefigures the real saving action.

As for blood, it belongs to God as it is the source of life for the body which makes the blood atonement critics wrong for denying it, only if they deny it completely, IMO.
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  #14  
Old Mar 11, '09, 4:15 am
Nathan Wagar Nathan Wagar is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

Hi guys, I'm new to this forum, but I thought I'd chime in. It was after the golden calf incident that animal sacrifice was necessary. Prior to that it was more of a discretionary practice. Because they turned their backs on the God of the covenant due to a problem with idolatry, God established it as a remedial program of sorts. On the one hand, Israel couldn't slaughter or eat that the egyptians sacrificed to their gods; they were declared unclean. On the other hand, the very animals that the egyptians venerated as gods and never sacrificed, the Israelites had to slaughter and eat; they were declared clean. God made the act the egyptians considered the biggest crime into the means the Israelites could approach God and obtain pardon. The very act considered the cause of death would become the cause of their deliverance from death. This would wipe away their sins symbolically until the sacrifice of Jesus could wipe away their sins actually.

This was pretty much ripped from a scott hahn book so just giving that credit where it's due.

God Bless
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  #15  
Old May 6, '09, 7:47 am
Jonatello Jonatello is offline
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Default Re: Why blood sacrifice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Wagar View Post
This would wipe away their sins symbolically until the sacrifice of Jesus could wipe away their sins actually.

God Bless
what is the point of wiping them away symbolically if it has no actual result?
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