Hope - Page 4

Dameedna · #46 Jan 23, '09, 6:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus

..... that Hope has more in common with Love than Faith.

Spot on

Dameedna · #47 Jan 23, '09, 6:56 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeS

I would say that hope is possible without faith in x (or any other form of sincere belief in the possibility of x), but also that without that belief it would be irrational or unrealistic to hope.

Depends on the hope.

I can hope my child will get straight "A"s, on their exam. This is neither irrational or unrealistic.

Hope for an eternal life, to an athiest however, would be unrational or realistic.

Athiests don't have "NO" hope, they just don't have the same kind of hope.

Quote:

So, I think that hope can be realistic or unrealistic.

Exactly. Athiests have a realistic form of Hope. They only hope, for what they can be assured of, is possible.

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Again, for the atheistic naturalist to hope for heaven would be to go against the grain, as would it be for the Christian to hope that God was not real... but both hopes are possible psychological attitudes in spite of the fact that they are inconsistent with their world views or realities.

You were good up to this piont. An athiest not hoping for heaven, is not the same as a christian to not hope for a real God.

These two version of hope that you are describing are completely different.

No athiest, "hopes" there is no heaven. That is ludicrious. No athiest "hopes" there is no God. The athiest does not "submit" to the hope that there is something there, because their submission to truth(which requires verifiable evidence) takes precedance.

Sigh...no-one ever understands the poor old athiest :P

markhiggins01 · #48 Jan 23, '09, 9:44 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus

Mark:

Are you saying that the stronger your faith becomes, the more your hope will grow?

Yes, in the case of Divine Faith and Divine Hope, due to the perfection of the object.

Socrates4Jesus · #49 Jan 23, '09, 1:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeS

I would say that hope is possible without faith in x (or any other form of sincere belief in the possibility of x), but also that without that belief it would be irrational or unrealistic to hope.

So, you do not believe in Santa Claus. Still it is possible to wish for a future in which he interacts with your history. I imagine you could hope for magically delivered presents in midwinter, even though you did not believe in it being a realistic possibility.

So, I think that hope can be realistic or unrealistic. Realism is defined from the relative perspective in accordance with one's world view. Note I say relative not absolute in order to focus on the subjective element of definitions of "reality", and not the objective independent reality.

So, realism for the Christian is different for realism of the atheistic naturalist. They have different definitions of "reality", different world views. Now, for both hoping for Santa - if they did not believe in him - would be a silly thing to do, but it would not be psychologically impossible. Again, for the atheistic naturalist to hope for heaven would be to go against the grain, as would it be for the Christian to hope that God was not real... but both hopes are possible psychological attitudes in spite of the fact that they are inconsistent with their world views or realities.

Agreed. It is possible for a person to hope for what she knows is not possible. Such a person would be out of her mind, or at the very least irrational.

Socrates4Jesus · #50 Jan 23, '09, 1:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dameedna

hehe..I know you're being cheeky, but I'll respond anyway.

I don't know that I exist

....(NOTE: however for the record I never said, I don't know what "existance" is, I said I didn't know what life is. Of course, I don't know what existance is either, but it's best not to put words in anothers mouth. It causes confusion not clarity. Clarity is better....and no I'm not sure of that either, but it seems to be related to truth,which is a higher concept I accept and live with, sort of like hope

)

I cannot know anything for sure. I just accept it.

I still give in to life wether it's real or not. I let it happen

I have no choice :P

Cheers
Dame

Dame:

Is there anything that you accept as absolutely true?

Socrates4Jesus · #51 Jan 23, '09, 1:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dameedna

Spot on

If my words were spot on, then perhaps i was too hasty in putting the silver medal around Faith's neck. For, if St. Paul speaks the truth in saying Love is the greatest of all virtues, then it stands to reason that any virtue most like Love would be the second greatest. Faith, unlike Hope, seems to have nothing to do with desire.

Help me judge between our competitors, Dame. In your opinion, who gets the silver and to whom should the bronze medal go?

Socrates4Jesus · #52 Jan 23, '09, 1:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by markhiggins01

Yes, in the case of Divine Faith and Divine Hope, due to the perfection of the object.

I concur, Mark. It would be irrational to lose hope as your faith in a favorable outcome grows. Likewise to become more hopeful as one's faith in some good result dwindles is the sign on psychological instability.

davidv · #53 Jan 23, '09, 1:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus

If my words were spot on, then perhaps i was too hasty in putting the silver medal around Faith's neck. For, if St. Paul speaks the truth in saying Love is the greatest of all virtues, then it stands to reason that any virtue most like Love would be the second greatest. Faith, unlike Hope, seems to have nothing to do with desire.

Help me judge between our competitors, Dame. In your opinion, who gets the silver and to whom should the bronze medal go?

Why do you think it is a competition rather than each working with the others toward a common goal (teamwork)?

Socrates4Jesus · #54 Jan 23, '09, 1:32 pm

Question for anyone who cares to answer:

Could it be that genuine virtues of Christian Faith and Christian Hope are like two sides of the same coin?

Socrates4Jesus · #55 Jan 23, '09, 1:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidv

Why do you think it is a competition rather than each working with the others toward a common goal (teamwork)?

It's a technique Socrates himself often used. When discussing the merits of one virtue over another he often personified them. In Philebus, for example, he described Pleasure and Reason as two athletes competing for the prize of being the greatest of all human pursuits. Thinking of Faith, Hope and Love as Olympic athletes helps me use my imagination to come to a better understanding of the three, and just might make the conversation more interesting.

davidv · #56 Jan 23, '09, 1:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus

It's a technique Socrates himself often used. When discussing the merits of one virtue over another he often personified them. In Philebus, for example, he described Pleasure and Reason as two athletes competing for the prize of being the greatest of all human pursuits. Thinking of Faith, Hope and Love as Olympic athletes helps me use my imagination to come to a better understanding of the three, and just might make the conversation more interesting.

If sports metaphors help, why not consider them teammates on a three-man basketball team?

Now you can consider:
1) the goal
2) each ones role in achieving that goal, and
3) and what each one does for the others to aid in achieving that goal.

Socrates4Jesus · #57 Jan 23, '09, 1:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidv

If sports metaphors help, why not consider them teammates on a three-man basketball team?

Now you can consider:
1) the goal
2) each ones role in achieving that goal, and
3) and what each one does for the others to aid in achieving that goal.

Sounds good to me! Now who would you say is the MVP? Do you agree with St. Paul that he is Love? or do you think Hope or Faith are more valuable players?

fhansen · #58 Jan 23, '09, 2:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus

Sounds good to me! Now who would you say is the MVP? Do you agree with St. Paul that he is Love? or do you think Hope or Faith are more valuable players?

It seems to me that, if we had to rank them, then love, as St Paul says, is the ultimate goal, the others being vehicles to it and probably contained within it. It could be said, I think, that love is what Adam & Eve rejected and love is what we must come to recognize as the highest good and be perfected in. When that is accomplished in creation, then God will be all in all.

davidv · #59 Jan 23, '09, 2:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus

Sounds good to me! Now who would you say is the MVP? Do you agree with St. Paul that he is Love? or do you think Hope or Faith are more valuable players?

All right, I'll play.

For MVP I nominate Faith, for without faith the others do not exist or do not know the goal.

Socrates4Jesus · #60 Jan 23, '09, 2:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidv

All right, I'll play.

For MVP I nominate Faith, for without faith the others do not exist or do not know the goal.

I was thinking the same thing. Why, then, would St. Paul write this?

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. ...

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13)