Catholics, what do you do with 1 John 5? It contradicts RCC doctrine concerning the assurance of salvation. See for yourself.

[NonCatholic]

Take II

Originally Posted by NonCatholic

Originally Posted by NonCatholic View Post
Does the Church have an organizational structure?
Randy said: Yes.

Quote:NonCatholic
Does the Church have a hierarchy?
Randy said: Yes.

Quote:NonCatholic
Does the Church have subordinates?
Randy said: I need clarification on what you are asking.
NonCatholic answered: I believe you might refer to as the "laity"?
Quote:NonCatholic
Does the Church have business to conduct?
Randy said: Yes.

Quote:NonCatholic
Is the statement "where two or three are gathered; there I am to" false?
Randy said: No. However, two or three gathered ARE NOT the Church.

Randy said: Now, from your own questions, you can see that the Church is a visible entity with an organizational structure and leadership.
Randy said: Actually from your answers I can see the Catholic Church is a visible entity.
Randy said: It is NOT an invisible, "spiritual" union of all true believers regardless of denomination or creed. Then you can visually see God's elect, which is the true church?


NonCatholic says: I hope you see your error in reasoning on the point concerning the visible church versus the "invisible" church of Jesus Christ.

Invisible is just used to describe man's inability to know exactly who the elect are.

[broski234]

Originally Posted by NonCatholic

All of the "have too's" just described a "works salvation". You can deny it by saying "that's not what I'm saying", but you just said it above.

Consider the One who does it all; including the works which He predetermined that the man of God will walk in them.

Philippians 1:3-5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. 6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Who began it?

As has been said before, we are saved by God's grace alone, through faith working in love. Faith and works are part of the salvation process. It is not faith alone. The works are done by the grace of God. But, we do have free will. At any point we can throw away this gift from God if we choose to do so. Hence free will! I may be wrong, but it seems as if you deny that works play a role in the salvation process. Do you?

[paul c]

Originally Posted by NonCatholic

All of the "have too's" just described a "works salvation". You can deny it by saying "that's not what I'm saying", but you just said it above.

Consider the One who does it all; including the works which He predetermined that the man of God will walk in them.

Philippians 1:3-5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. 6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Who began it?

This is a common discussion on CAF. Certain Protestants are convinced that Jesus did all the work of salvation and that all men need to do to be saved is to beleive. This started out with Luther who , uncomfortable with his own goodness, was induced by Satan to preach a Gospel where Goodness wasn't required, only faith. For what could serve Satan better than people who have to do nothing on their own behalf, and in fact can sin freely, comfortable that the Lord will save them because of their belief. For even Satan knows Jesus is the Son of God and by the criteria of Faith alone, he too would be saved.

This is not to say that Faith is not required for Salvation, it is. But its only the second step (the first being God's Grace). The third and final step is to demonstrate your faith through works. This is the total message of James 2 (Faith without works is dead). It is also repeated three times very directly in the Gospel of Matthew:

Matthew 7:21-23: Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'

Note: words are not enough, action is required and those that do evil will be condemned.

Matthew 19: 16-19 :
Now someone approached him and said, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?" He answered him, "Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." He asked him, "Which ones?" And Jesus replied, " 'You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother'; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Notice that Jesus is asked point blank what is required to gain eternal life and he answers with do the commandments. If it was faith alone, wouldn't he have said so. But this person already had faith. He needed to follow up with works.

Finally, Matthew 25:31-46, when he describes the last judgment:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs? He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Note, both the sheeps and the goats had faith enough to call him Lord. What differentiated them was their works of mercy (in the case of the Sheep) and what condemned the Goats were their lack of works.

These examples have parallels through out the New Testament. So it is not by Faith alone that we are saved, but by doing God's will to demonstrate that faith.

And if you need to do good works to be saved and if your lack of good works will condemn you, then the only reasonable conclusion is that your salvation is not assured until death, when the possibility of failing to do the good works required is no longer possible.

One final thought. If you really believe that Jesus taught " Don't worry about doing anything for your salvation, I have done it all". then find the scriptural reference that says it in clear language. You won't though because that is Satan's message, not Jesus's message.

[joe370]

Originally Posted by nancy dalrymple

Hello,I beleive in one body and one church and when i think of it I think of the wheat and tares a hugh field of people and God sends the angels to seperate the wheat from the tares. Their not in a building or organization Christ lives in your heart greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world Get It? Nancy

If you believe that Jesus built One Body, His Church, then, how you visualize it really doesn't matter AT THIS JUNCTURE; the point is, you are heading in the right direction--you are starting to believe that Jesus, did indeed build just One Church, so we could ALL be a part of His One established Apostolic Church circa 33 AD --and be saved! Now all you have to do, and only you can do this, is find that one church built by God, not mere humans, circa 33 AD, in the world today, and you will be where Jesus Christ intended you to be, when He created you!

Their not in a building or organization Christ lives in your heart greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world Get It? Nancy[/quote]


I don't know about you, but when I go to church, I enter into an actual edifice, with an actual address, and it is very organized, as is the entire C.C. --as are all churches, regardless of denomination, and just as the Church was in the days of the Apostles. When Paul sent Timothy to One of the Apostolic Churches, how could Timothy find said church if it wasn't in a building, with a locatable address --if it wasn't well organized?

The Church built by Jesus is not a building per se, it is an organized assembly of all those who make up Jesus' One Mystical Body. Even though we are all different in one way or the other, when we enter into Jesus' One Mystical Body, called His Church, we become One with God. Jesus' Church was designed to unite us --to bring us all together --to break down the barriers, be it language or cultural or otherwise, that keep us from being part of the only family that will matter, when we die.

Jesus' Bible is so awesome! If you hand someone a bible, they will either chuck it or read it, and if they read it, and become hooked, eventually they will realize that it is not enough, that Jesus actually built a church, and said that He is the Savior of His Church, not the Savior of those who read this awesome bible, and that the Holy Spirit is forever guiding and teaching His One Church, and therefore the Church built by Jesus, as opposed to Jesus' awesome Bible, is the kernel of Christianity! THE MEMBERS OF JESUS' ONE CHURCH CANNOT, EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO, INTERPRET THE DIVINE MESSAGE IN ANY WAY EXCEPT IN THE FULL SENSE INTENDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT!

Heb 9:28 says, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

When Jesus returns a second time for salvation, to those who eagerly await Him, wouldn't it be wise for us to await Him in the Church He Built. After all THE CHURCH HE BUILT IS HIM!!!

I wish you good luck on your Journey, and hope, it eventually leads you to the One Church built by Jesus Christ in the 1st century, the One Church that can never be defeated, the One Church comprised of both the wheat and the tares. If Jesus' One Church can never be defeated, shouldn't there, for all practical purposes, still, be just One Church in the world today? Once I reconciled my beliefs with this biblical fact, I finally jumped off the proverbial fence and rushed to be, where Jesus resides day and night. Even if you show up in private, He is there in a more personal way then He is, when you are at your house, and that is because His Church is the House of the Living God, the House of the Trinity, The House of Jesus Christ, again, to which He is the Savior.

God bless Nancy.........

[joe370]

NonCatholic -All of the "have too's" just described a "works salvation".

I explained to you that, baptism for example, cannot save in and of itself, neither can good works, but they are commands issued by God, so we must obey --RIGHT?!!! Or, can we just ignore all those "have too's?" You seem to be spinning your wheels here my friend.

All catholics believe that salvation is a free gift, thanks to Jesus Christ!!!! Salvation through baptism or good works alone is unattainable. With that said, what's the problem?

You can deny it by saying "that's not what I'm saying", but you just said it above.

Now, are we finally on the same page???

Consider the One who does it all; including the works which He predetermined that the man of God will walk in them.

Well, then that person, having obeyed everyone of Jesus' commands will dwell forever with God.
Consider the one who doesn't do it all, including baptism and good works........Is his/her salvation still free? If that is the case, where does it end?

Mark 16:16 - Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. What if I'm not baptized?

John 3:3,5 - Unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless they are born again of water. What if I'm not born again through baptism?

Acts 2:38 - Each of you must repent, turn to God, and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin. What if I don't repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin?

Philippians 1:3-5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. 6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Who began it?[/b]

Amen brother! The gospel, interpreted by the church built by Jesus Christ, and guided by the Holy Spirit, will always lead one to good works, however those good works, alone are powerless; The free gift won for us by Jesus' Perfect Sacrifice on Calvary, is the only thing that can lead us through the pearly gates, with one exception --we must obey all of His commands in our earthly life! --AGREED?

If not, we will just have to agree to disagree......

[NonCatholic]

Originally Posted by broski234

As has been said before, we are saved by God's grace alone, through faith working in love. Faith and works are part of the salvation process. It is not faith alone. The works are done by the grace of God. But, we do have free will. At any point we can throw away this gift from God if we choose to do so. Hence free will! I may be wrong, but it seems as if you deny that works play a role in the salvation process. Do you?

The works are the fruit of your salvation; not in addition to salvation. Salvation includes justification, sanctification and glorification. God does it all. Not one of God's chosen can turn away from Him or change God's predetermined will; otherwise He would not be God. We cooperate in as far as the Holy Spirit compels us to do the work of sanctification or fruits of righteousness so we may glorify God while on earth. We would not chose to do this on our own because of our sin nature.
Romans chapter 9 will help put this into the proper context; particularly versus 19-24.

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by mmmcounts

Waaayyy back right near the beginning of this thread, someone (I forget who and I'm too lazy to check, but thank you for providing it) posted a link to a site that explains the Catholic answer to this issue of assurance. It stated that there is a difference between the knowability of salvation and the loseability of salvation. I agreed with this statement and attempted to limit myself to talking about the knowability of salvation. If I ever want to talk about the loseability of salvation, I'll do it on a different thread. However, the question at hand concerns salvation's knowability. Even if you believe you can lose your salvation at some point, you can still conceive of the ability to know that you have it. Right?

Essentially, I'm asserting that the ability to lose salvation (which I don't want to talk about here) does not necessitate an inability to know that you have it. Therefore, if the supposition that you may lose your salvation at some point in the future is the extent of the evidence for a universal inability to know that you have salvation, I would not be extremely well-convinced in this situation. Catch my drift?

I can understand where you're coming from. It's easy to regard "completed salvation" as something that will happen once you die a great number of years from now. I'm coming at this from more of a "If you died tonight" kind of perspective, though. That "If you died tonight" question could be fleshed out to include questions like "Are you really good to go? Is there anything else that needs to be done?" At its most basic, my contention is that we can answer these questions with absolute certainty from the testimony of Scripture and also- this actually hasn't come up much, but here it is- the testimony of God in our hearts. It's the blue verse in the OP.

Lets bend the glass and make a prism for a minute with this. Is there at any time God withdraws the gift of salvation He offers all of us … absolutely not. He gave His only begotten Son that He would conquer death and offer salvation to everyone. It is always there for us.

Can someone claim that they are at a given moment fully cleansed of all sin and impurity to enter eternal life without debt… absolutely not. Why? As Jesus said,
Matthew CH: 19 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich (of the influence of the world) to enter the kingdom of God." 25 18 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and said, "Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, "For human beings this is impossible, but for God all things are possible."
man cannot decide he is in a state of complete purification at the time of his mortal death and just as the Pharisee claimed himself so righteous, so too would one who believes himself to be of such purity. That is why it is impossible for human beings. Only God makes that determination based on what is in a man’s heart and there are times man questions his own motives and responsibilities when it comes to decisions made.
Can a person claim that they have not failed to do something they should have done according to Jesus’ teachings? How about failing in rendering help to someone who they could have provided some comfort or assistance to but ignored the consideration. In truth, it is even harder to know if one has done all that he or she could/should have during this life for the love of others in our Lord. Knowing one commits and act that is sinful is often easier than knowing one has failed to act when they should have or could have.

No person recognized as being Holy or a person of devotional faith has ever proclaimed themself to be such. It is others who recognize that state of being in someone, not through self proclamation. And it would be self-rightious for someone to claim they absolutely owe no debt to enter eternal life.

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by NonCatholic

The works are the fruit of your salvation; not in addition to salvation. Salvation includes justification, sanctification and glorification. God does it all. Not one of God's chosen can turn away from Him or change God's predetermined will; otherwise He would not be God. We cooperate in as far as the Holy Spirit compels us to do the work of sanctification or fruits of righteousness so we may glorify God while on earth. We would not chose to do this on our own because of our sin nature.
Romans chapter 9 will help put this into the proper context; particularly versus 19-24.

"...Let us begin with John 3:16...

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. [John 3:16, RSV]

This verse is a concise yet beautiful statement of the Gospel message. God so loves us that He sent His only Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the Cross at the hands of sinful men in order to save us from hell (Romans 5:6-11). Our salvation is a free gift from God purchased by Christ. We cannot earn heaven least we boast (Ephesians 2:8). We are saved through Christ by believing in Christ. But what is "believing?"

Now John 3:16 is not a complete expression of the doctrine of salvation. We must understand it in the context and fullness of revelation. Only twenty verses later, it is also written:

He who believes (pisteuon) in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey (apeithon) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. [John 3:36]

The RSV, NAB and NASB Bibles translate the Greek verb, apeithon, as "obey." This verse connects "belief in Christ" with "obedience to Christ." Elsewhere St. Paul connects faith with obedience as in "the obedience of faith" [Romans 1:5] and with good works as in "faith working through love" [Galatians 5:6]. Also it is written, "By faith Abraham obeyed..." [Hebrew 11:8]. According to the Bible, "to believe" also means "to obey." We do not sincerely believe in Christ, if we disobey God's Commandments - i.e. commit sin (James 2:18-26). Sin is a break in faith (Numbers 5:6-7).

As a result of Adam's sin (Romans 5:12) and through our serious sins, we reject God and deserve hell - the loss of eternal life. It must be remembered that hell is not punishment from a vengeful God but the natural consequence of rejecting God - the Source of life and goodness. Our sins offend God's love. There is nothing we can do as finite (limited) creatures to repair this infinite (unlimited) offense. Fortunately due to God's mercy, Christ redeems us from hell through His Passion and Sacrifice on the Cross. As a free gift (Titus 3:5), God forgives us and offers us the grace to live with Him in friendship forever, beginning in the Sacrament of Baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 2:38). In the washing of Baptism, we receive Sanctifying Grace, which makes us right with God (Acts 22:16; 1 Cor 6:9-11).

Now we are surely redeemed by Christ in Baptism but we can freely choose to reject this gift through serious sin. As St. Paul writes:

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Romans 6:23]

In this verse, eternal life is heaven, while death is hell - the opposite of eternal life. Heaven is a free gift from God, but we can still earn hell by committing serious sin (i.e. mortal sin). Obeying God's Law does not save us, but the Law does point to sins that can damn us (Romans 3:20). As an analogy, my civil liberties are a gift from my forefathers, but if I commit a felony, I may go to jail. Also in the Bible:

Make no mistake about this: no fornicator (those who have sex before marriage), no unclean or lustful person - in effect an idolater - has any inheritance in the kingdom (heaven) of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with worthless arguments. These are sins that bring God's wrath down on the disobedient.[Ephesians 5:5-6; NAB]


Another sobering verse from St. Paul is:

For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement. [Hebrews 10:26-27; RSV]

Please note that the "we" in this verse also included St. Paul - a faith-filled, baptized Christian! After Baptism if we sin deliberately and remain unrepentant, then we can lose the gift of salvation. In Baptism we receive Sanctifying Grace in our souls by no merit of our own, but afterwards we must cooperate with this grace or we will lose it (2 Cor 6:1). This cooperation with God's redeeming grace is the Catholic understanding of merit (CCC 162; 2025)."

continued at http://users.binary.net/polycarp/hope.html

According to what you have said, it would then be Jesus judging Himself for the works each of us performs when the goates and sheep are seperated at the time of judgement.

[1holycatholic]

Originally Posted by NonCatholic

Take II
Invisible is just used to describe man's inability to know exactly who the elect are.

Why can't I find your beliefs in the writings of the early Christians, say the first 250 years?

[tqualey]

Hi, Nancy,

Yes, I can see that you are a bit confused about this. Let me see if I can help

Originally Posted by nancy dalrymple

:confused

Originally Posted by nancy dalrymple

: Now you realy cannot say that the Catholic churches Roots were not of Roman decent?

Actually, I really can say that the roots of the Catholic Church are NOT Roman. And, I will tell you why: Jesus Christ was born in Bethlahem of Judea, a conquered Roman territory. The Holy Family moved to some place in Egypt, and a few years later, the three of them moved to Nazareth in Judea. Christ grew up in Nazareth. When Christ was proclaimed the Lamb of God by John the Baptist this was at the River Jordan and in Judea. After a 40-day retreat in the desert, Christ picked His Twelve Apostles. While there are no birth documents on any of these 12 men, the Gospels gives the impression that these were from the area - so, that would make them all Jews from Judea which is modern day Israel.

Christ proclaimed Himself the Corner Stone of the Building and Christ built His Chruch on Peter, who Christ called "Rock" as the foundation. We are talking about the Catholic Church. These actions took place in Judea and not in Rome or even Italy.

The only non-local Apostle was Saul and he was from Tarsus and that is in modern day Turkey. At that time Tarsus was favored by the pagan Roman Empire in such a way that Saul (later named Paul) could claim Roman Citizenship. But, Tarsus is still a long way from Italy. Paul did travel to Roman, 'courtesy' of Emperor Nero and this may have been the first time that Paul actually arrived in Rome. This, was neither a vacation or a social visit - rather, Paul was a prisoner and he had appealed his case to the Emperor, and that was the reason for the journey.

So the roots of the Catholic Church are Judean - and NOT Roman.

Originally Posted by nancy dalrymple

: Ad when I pray I ask God to forgive my sins...

You know, it is a good idea to pray - and to pray often. A really good idea is to pray for all the people who post to CAF...

Originally Posted by nancy dalrymple

:...and the sins I cannot see,and I know he is faithfull and just to forgive me of my sins .So why should I be judged,he dosen't just judge he rewards too!

Now, I am not entirely sure what you have in mind here, but, let me share a story with you that may give you another idea. You will find this story in your Bible. Matthew 25: 1-13. This is a story that Christ told about 10 women, and all were virgins who were invited to a wedding feast and had instructions to meet the Bbridegroom when He arrived and greet Him wih lighted lamps. I am sure you remember the story.

I really do not know if there were 'blonde jokes' in the First Century A.D., but, the idea of five of these gals trying to light their lamp wicks without oil must have struck Christ's listeners as some silly or quite foolish women. But, I digress... as you know, the oilless (clueless?) women finaly got oil and came back and started to knock on the door to be let in. After all, they had done most things right and felt entitled to be admitted.

Note, the Bridegroom did not say, "While foolish, you all were pretty good girls after all: and then let them into the party. It did not happen that way. The door was shut and they were left on the outside to face the darkness and whatever else was out there.

This was not a funny ending for those foolish five. And, I always took that story as a judgment story. Being 'pretty good' is not enough, being prepared for the Lord (and, that would mean persevering to the end) is most important. It could be argued that these foolish five fell asleep - just like the wise five did - but, the problem was the wise ones had made advanced preparations.

Did the foolish five think they were saved? I do beleive they thought that (being virgins I think that meant they lived proper lives). Did they lose their salvation? That is just what the story is telling us. Re-read it and let me know what you think and how this actually provides an answer to your question.

God bless

[NonCatholic]

Originally Posted by joe370

NonCatholic -All of the "have too's" just described a "works salvation".

I explained to you that, baptism for example, cannot save in and of itself, neither can good works, but they are commands issued by God, so we must obey --RIGHT?!!! Or, can we just ignore all those "have too's?" You seem to be spinning your wheels here my friend.

All catholics believe that salvation is a free gift, thanks to Jesus Christ!!!! Salvation through baptism or good works alone is unattainable. With that said, what's the problem?

You can deny it by saying "that's not what I'm saying", but you just said it above.

Now, are we finally on the same page???

Consider the One who does it all; including the works which He predetermined that the man of God will walk in them.

Well, then that person, having obeyed everyone of Jesus' commands will dwell forever with God.
Consider the one who doesn't do it all, including baptism and good works........Is his/her salvation still free? If that is the case, where does it end?

This is not a water baptism, but a spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit. This could be written "Anyone who believes and receives the Holy Spirit will be saved"

The water here is speaking of "Jewish purification", not water baptism - remember he is speaking to a prominent Jewish teacher/leader. The only baptism he might be familiar with at this point would be John's the baptists type of baptism, which Scripture says does not save.

Here: Forgiveness of sins is the object of the verb "repent".

Luke 10:27 And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Please notice that these two commandments; encompass all of the ten commandments except for one, which is "remember the sabbath" because that is not new testament. Remember this for the next encounter with the Seventh Day Adventist group.

Now, what is the purpose of the law? To reveal what? Can anyone keep the law? Therefore, can anyone keep Jesus commandments?

[NonCatholic]

Originally Posted by 1holycatholic

Why can't I find your beliefs in the writings of the early Christians, say the first 250 years?

Why look there, ECF's, when the concept is implicit in Scripture. Who are the saved or the elect? Can you see and know who are all of the elect? Do all the elect come from within Catholicism?

[tqualey]

Hi, Tom,

This was an especially excellent response. It was a pleasure to read it - thanks for the post!

Originally Posted by twb1621

"...Let us begin with John 3:16...

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. [John 3:16, RSV].

God bless

[joe370]

Originally Posted by NonCatholic

The works are the fruit of your salvation; not in addition to salvation. Salvation includes justification, sanctification and glorification. God does it all. Not one of God's chosen can turn away from Him or change God's predetermined will; otherwise He would not be God. We cooperate in as far as the Holy Spirit compels us to do the work of sanctification or fruits of righteousness so we may glorify God while on earth. We would not chose to do this on our own because of our sin nature.
Romans chapter 9 will help put this into the proper context; particularly versus 19-24.

I think I'm starting to see where you are going with this. Everything you or I or anyone in the world, for that matter, does --- is predestined? We are simply on auto pilot, while God steers us here and there? We have no control over our lives; it has ALL been predetermined? We have no FREE WILL? You seem to be an advocate of the Martin Luther school of thought; I think I get it now.

I have just one question, and I think I speak on behalf of all catholics, at this thread:

Is faith without works dead?

[po18guy]

Originally Posted by NonCatholic

Why look there, ECF's, when the concept is implicit in Scripture.

Kindly grant us the same blessing of implicit scriptural doctrines in Catholicism that you enjoy in your faith tradition.

Who are the saved or the elect? Can you see and know who are all of the elect?

Pray that you are spared the test of your faith. The elect are the visible Church founded by Christ, to include our separated brothers and sisters.

Do all the elect come from within Catholicism?

Yes, but the following may amaze/surprise/disturb you: All Christians are members of the universal church. Many, however, remain separated from the revealed fulness of truth. We pray for them, that one fine day, we may be One as the Father and Son are One. Amen!