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  #1  
Old Jan 29, '09, 7:20 am
JasonHC JasonHC is offline
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Default Romans 10:9-10

Hi everyone,

I wonder if anyone can address this. Protestants generally said this is their basis for salvation:

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved" (Romans 10:9-10)

While I realize there are tons of passages that show the necessity of baptism, and works of righteousness, the passage by itself sounds quite protestant. Anyone have any thoughts on how to address this based on St. Paul's letter to the Romans alone?

-Jason
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  #2  
Old Jan 29, '09, 7:26 am
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DD2007 DD2007 is offline
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Default Re: Romans 10:9-10

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonHC View Post
Hi everyone,

I wonder if anyone can address this. Protestants generally said this is their basis for salvation:

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved" (Romans 10:9-10)

While I realize there are tons of passages that show the necessity of baptism, and works of righteousness, the passage by itself sounds quite protestant. Anyone have any thoughts on how to address this based on St. Paul's letter to the Romans alone?

-Jason
Here is the order of Salvation.

Ordo Salutis: 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
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  #3  
Old Jan 29, '09, 7:55 am
JasonHC JasonHC is offline
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Default Re: Romans 10:9-10

I don't see how Romans 8:29-30 addresses what I had posted. Can you elaborate?
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  #4  
Old Jan 29, '09, 7:55 am
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NotWorthy NotWorthy is offline
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Default Re: Romans 10:9-10

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonHC View Post
Hi everyone,

I wonder if anyone can address this. Protestants generally said this is their basis for salvation:

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved" (Romans 10:9-10)

While I realize there are tons of passages that show the necessity of baptism, and works of righteousness, the passage by itself sounds quite protestant. Anyone have any thoughts on how to address this based on St. Paul's letter to the Romans alone?

-Jason
Why are you doing these things - baptism, works, prayers, petitions, devotion? If these acts are springing forth from your heart out of your love for Christ, then you are fulfilling Roman 10:9-10.

That's what believing with your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord means. You believe and follow what He teaches us through the Church and Scriptures (which are not mutually exclusive, no matter what your non-Catholic friends may tell you! ).
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  #5  
Old Jan 29, '09, 8:05 am
myfavoritmartin myfavoritmartin is offline
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Default Re: Romans 10:9-10

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Originally Posted by NotWorthy View Post
Why are you doing these things - baptism, works, prayers, petitions, devotion? If these acts are springing forth from your heart out of your love for Christ, then you are fulfilling Roman 10:9-10.

That's what believing with your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord means. You believe and follow what He teaches us through the Church and Scriptures (which are not mutually exclusive, no matter what your non-Catholic friends may tell you! ).
Hi brother J
If they spring from the heart does that make them not a necessity instead they are an obedience?
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  #6  
Old Jan 29, '09, 8:05 am
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NotWorthy NotWorthy is offline
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Default Re: Romans 10:9-10

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Originally Posted by JasonHC View Post
I don't see how Romans 8:29-30 addresses what I had posted. Can you elaborate?
Basically what the Romans 10:9-10, when used as a proof-text, is someone missing the forest for the trees.
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  #7  
Old Jan 29, '09, 8:09 am
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NotWorthy NotWorthy is offline
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Default Re: Romans 10:9-10

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Hi brother J
If they spring from the heart does that make them not a necessity instead they are an obedience?
Hey, Brother Dean! When you do something for your lovely wife, is it out of love, necessity, obedience, a deep desire to please? Can you tell the difference?
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  #8  
Old Jan 29, '09, 8:13 am
cpayne cpayne is offline
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Default Re: Romans 10:9-10

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonHC View Post
Hi everyone,

I wonder if anyone can address this. Protestants generally said this is their basis for salvation:

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved" (Romans 10:9-10)

While I realize there are tons of passages that show the necessity of baptism, and works of righteousness, the passage by itself sounds quite protestant. Anyone have any thoughts on how to address this based on St. Paul's letter to the Romans alone?

-Jason
I would put it this way: This passage is definitely about salvation and is absolutely essential. However, that doesn't mean this is the only passage one needs. There are a lot of other passages about salvation that are also essential, passages which mention repentance, baptism, walking in love, and so on. These other passages are also just as emphatic; you cannot be saved without them (according to these passages themselves). "Many will say, Lord, Lord," according to Jesus [in other words, they confess Him as Lord], "but I will say, I never knew you."
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  #9  
Old Jan 29, '09, 8:13 am
myfavoritmartin myfavoritmartin is offline
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Default The whole forest Paul speaks of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotWorthy View Post
Basically what the Romans 10:9-10, when used as a proof-text, is someone missing the forest for the trees.
Lets look at the whole forest of chapter 10 which is really Pauls prayer for the salvation of Israel and see if we see something different...

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That
if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
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  #10  
Old Jan 29, '09, 8:17 am
myfavoritmartin myfavoritmartin is offline
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Default Re: Romans 10:9-10

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Originally Posted by NotWorthy View Post
Hey, Brother Dean! When you do something for your lovely wife, is it out of love, necessity, obedience, a deep desire to please? Can you tell the difference?
FEAR
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  #11  
Old Jan 29, '09, 8:26 am
cpayne cpayne is offline
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Default Re: Romans 10:9-10

Ha!
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"I am aware that I owe this to God as the chief duty of my life: that my every word and sense may speak of Him" (Thomas Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles I.2.2).
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  #12  
Old Jan 29, '09, 8:32 am
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NotWorthy NotWorthy is offline
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Default Re: Romans 10:9-10

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Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin View Post
FEAR
AMEN!

And hence, "Blessed are they who FEAR the Lord and walk in His Ways".
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  #13  
Old Jan 29, '09, 8:35 am
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PatienceAndLove PatienceAndLove is offline
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Default Re: Romans 10:9-10

"As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:58), but Im also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:910, 1 Cor. 3:1215). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:1113)."
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  #14  
Old Jan 29, '09, 8:37 am
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NotWorthy NotWorthy is offline
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Default Re: The whole forest Paul speaks of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin View Post
Lets look at the whole forest of chapter 10 which is really Pauls prayer for the salvation of Israel and see if we see something different...
Good point! Context is everything.

Quote:
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That
if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Now here's why I have to pause and ponder. Christ says that many will call on the Lord and Jesus will say, "I never knew you". I read St. Paul's writings in light of Christ. I know, I know, some people read Christs words in the light of St. Paul's, but I'm Christian - not Paulian!

So, Is Paul saying there's more to "believeth" and "calling upon His Name"? It would seem so. Look at Romans in its entirety. The whole Epistle has the phrase "Obedience of Faith" as bookends. Paul equates "obedience" with "Faith", as he should do.
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  #15  
Old Jan 29, '09, 9:45 am
Nita Nita is offline
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Default Re: Romans 10:9-10

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonHC View Post
Hi everyone,

I wonder if anyone can address this. Protestants generally said this is their basis for salvation:

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved" (Romans 10:9-10)

While I realize there are tons of passages that show the necessity of baptism, and works of righteousness, the passage by itself sounds quite protestant. Anyone have any thoughts on how to address this based on St. Paul's letter to the Romans alone?

-Jason
You provided the key to what's wrong with your words "by itself". Those verses were not given by themselves; they are only two sentences in the middle of a whole long letter by Paul; which, in turn, is only one small part of the collected books of Scripture.

Nita
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