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  #16  
Old Jul 25, '11, 8:38 pm
jochoa jochoa is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

Quote:
Originally Posted by nahbios View Post
Ah...so admonishing in a Godly manner is admonishing in a patient and kind manner! I really should have realised that!

Thank you for the clarifications, Jochoa - my understanding has improved and I'm certainly glad that you've found the discussion spiritually edifying too. Now, I must definitely start practicing that way of offering of good advice you provided... I just need to remember and act quickly (but prudently) when someone does or is tempted to do something bad. Let's hope I use the Holy Spirit's Gift of Fortitude well!
Thank you very kindly for sharing your thoughts! If you change "Jochoa" to "Catholicism" I could ditto your words!
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  #17  
Old Jul 26, '11, 11:13 am
nahbios nahbios is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jochoa View Post
Thank you very kindly for sharing your thoughts! If you change "Jochoa" to "Catholicism" I could ditto your words!
Indeed, where would we be without God's Church? All the same, thank you for passing on those valuable insights.
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God responds to prayers in one of three ways:
1) Yes
2) Not yet
3) I have something better in mind...
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  #18  
Old Aug 6, '11, 6:25 am
LJF777 LJF777 is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

Are people allowed to admonish you if they are in mortal sin or should one be in a state of grace to admonish a sinner?
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  #19  
Old Aug 7, '11, 8:15 pm
jochoa jochoa is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

Are people allowed to admonish you if they are in mortal sin?
To help answer your question, please answer the following questions:
Are you judging people? If so, perhaps you should work on defining patience in yourself further. One aspect of patience is the lack of judgment in your thoughts. For if you judge others, you are not a doer of the law.
Do the "mortal sinners" have authority over you? If so, then they may admonish you. Although, most likely the admonishing will be ineffective.
If not, did you request advice from them? If so, then they may admonish you.
Are they abiding by laws of the land when admonishing you? If so, then yes. If their idea of admonishment involves physical or emotional abuse, perhaps you should consult help from a priest.

Should one be in a state of grace to admonish a sinner?
It is better to be in a state of grace when admonishing, for it will likely be more effective.
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My intentions for sharing these understandings is to grow myself and others closer to God - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and Catholicism, AND to subject these reflections to harsh criticisms regarding alignment with Catholicism, for it is the Truth.
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  #20  
Old Aug 10, '11, 12:09 am
Peter Devine Peter Devine is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

The comment has been made but sadly not many Catholics remember what is taught by our one true church when we are confronted by sin in our friends, relations and in all the means of communication in to-days world. The seven Spiritual works of Mercy have been quoted but the Catechism of the Catholic Church also teaches that we can share the guilt of anotherís sin in nine ways.
1. By council.
2. By command.
3. By consent.
4. By provocation.
5. By praise or flattery.
6. By concealment.
7. By being a partner to the sin.
8. BY SILENCE.
9. By defending the ill done.

It is number eight: By saying nothing, that is at the crux of this debate. This is a command by the Catholic Church and not a suggestion that we can take or leave.
We were all reminded of this command when the Epistle read at the mass celebrating the Memorial Mass of St. John Vianney on 4th August each year which is taken from Ezekiel.

In the Epistle from Ezekiel 3:16-31, we are told by Almighty God that if we fail to inform a sinner of his wrongdoings we will be condemned along with the sinner. If we do comply and instruct the sinner and make them aware of their offence and they take no notice, then he will be condemned and we will be saved.
If we fail to instruct the sinner, we will suffer condemnation also.
There are other passages in Scripture that reiterates this teaching of the Church.
It is a great gift and a privilege granted by the Almighty that we as members of the one true faith beleive in the same teaching the world over.
Sadly, how many politicians here in the UK and in the USA and CINO's (Catholics in name only) have failed to act on this command, to admonnish the sinner and will stand naked at the final tribunal and will be condemmed to eternal punishment for thier lack of charity toward their brothers and sisters while on earth.
One final comment, be prepaired to be very unpopular and be in turn be castigated by a great part of mankind to-day when acting on the Almighty's command.

God bless you all in the USA.

Peter Devine.
Co. Durham.
England.
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  #21  
Old Aug 10, '11, 8:48 am
JonathonofOhio JonathonofOhio is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

From what I understand admonishing a sinner is not judgmental. You are instruction, sharing the Truth, and correcting someone if they make a mistake. Telling someone they are going to hell because of something is not admonishing them, it is judging them.

Real life example: Someone came to my house the other day and my 13 year old daughter was here. He proceeded to use some swear words in his speech. I politely and quietly asked him to watch his language since my daughter was in the house. He respectfully apologized and did not swear from that point on. That is admonishing someone: in that you correct them, are polite and patient with them, and instruct them without being disrespectful towards them.
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  #22  
Old Aug 10, '11, 7:15 pm
jochoa jochoa is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathonofOhio View Post
Real life example: Someone came to my house the other day and my 13 year old daughter was here. He proceeded to use some swear words in his speech. I politely and quietly asked him to watch his language since my daughter was in the house. He respectfully apologized and did not swear from that point on. That is admonishing someone: in that you correct them, are polite and patient with them, and instruct them without being disrespectful towards them.
Given your example:
1. You are the Authority of your home.
2. The visitor accepted your authority by visiting your home.
3. Since you are the lawmaker of your home, you can righteously judge visitors of your home.
4. Therefore, you kindly and patiently admonished him.
Very Righteous and Effective!

Now let's say you are visiting his home. While there, his friend, another visitor, begins swearing in front of you and your daughter.
Would your level of patience with poor behavior change? Would your method of admonishing change?
__________________
My intentions for sharing these understandings is to grow myself and others closer to God - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and Catholicism, AND to subject these reflections to harsh criticisms regarding alignment with Catholicism, for it is the Truth.
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  #23  
Old Aug 11, '11, 7:08 am
JonathonofOhio JonathonofOhio is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jochoa View Post
Given your example:
Now let's say you are visiting his home. While there, his friend, another visitor, begins swearing in front of you and your daughter.
Would your level of patience with poor behavior change? Would your method of admonishing change?
For me, no nothing would be different. I would have politely asked there too. I have done this in the past when I went over to a friends house and took my kids with me. I have politely asked a friend to watch their language around my kids. I've never had anyone get angry with me about it, and they usually apologize, because most of the time they didn't even realize they were doing it.

There are subtle ways you can admonish as well without being so direct.

The best way I found is not using swear words myself (though I do let one out once in awhile; I'm not perfect ). I replace them with silly expressions like "darnit" and "dagnabit" & "frickin" or "frackin"-- people will laugh when I do this, but it actually makes them aware of their own speech. Most of the time I will notice a reduction in swearing around me if I do that, especially at social gatherings and when playing video games online.
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  #24  
Old Aug 11, '11, 1:13 pm
jochoa jochoa is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

To Peter Devine and JonathanofOhio,
You both have helped me grow greatly in perspective! Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts! I have been greatly consumed in thought over the concepts you present.

Quote:
...what is taught by our one true church when we are confronted by sin in...all the means of communication in to-days world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathonofOhio View Post
For me, no nothing would be different. I would have politely asked there too. I have done this in the past when I went over to a friends house and took my kids with me. I have politely asked a friend to watch their language around my kids. I've never had anyone get angry with me about it, and they usually apologize, because most of the time they didn't even realize they were doing it.

There are subtle ways you can admonish as well without being so direct.
I really like your answers, and I am trying to learn and practice the same type of admonishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Devine View Post
It is number eight: By saying nothing, that is at the crux of this debate. This is a command by the Catholic Church and not a suggestion that we can take or leave.
Regarding Silence
If one's interpretation and practice of the Word does not accurately represent God and the Faith, one should remain silent.

Thoughts?

Quote:
From what I understand admonishing a sinner is not judgmental.
Regarding Judgment
To Judge can be defined as: to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises.
To admonish requires the determination of sinfulness, and To determine sinfulness requires judging. However, if the sinner is under your authority, seeking your assistance or companionship, the act of judging is righteous.

I would also like to update my understanding of some concepts regarding this thread, which actually justify's consideration of Godly Punishment (CCC #1472):

Regarding the Guidelines of Righteous and Effective of Admonishment
The only time there is an obligation to admonish the sinner is if all the following progressive questions were true:
1. Do you have authority over the sinner or if not, is the sinner seeking your advice, understanding, or companionship? If so, the just opportunity to admonish is open. However, this does not mean you should.
2. Does your interpretation and practice of the Word accurately represent God and the Faith? If so, you are now at a level of righteous admonishment. And though you most likely will not weaken the sinnerís faith, consider that you may not strengthen it any either.
3. Can you fittingly* admonish in a Godly(patient and kind) manner? If so, you are now at the level of effective, righteous, and Godly admonishment!
*Judge exactly where the sinner is having difficulty applying Godís Word. This could range from determining which aspect of His Word is not properly understood to misunderstanding of the aspect of His Word to lack of understanding how to do His Word.

My changes are minor, but are very considerate:
1. Adding "seeking companionship" as an opportunity to admonish.
This is a major aspect in understanding Godly Punishment, unfortunately I do not have the time to elaborate.
2. Changing "determine where exactly" to "judge exactly where"
I did not want to sugar coat the concept any longer from personal ignorance and fear of contradiction. It can be righteous to judge the quality of practice in yourself and others, if you do so with proper authority, understanding, permission, and willingness.

Thank you very much for your consideration! I would greatly appreciate any thoughts you may have to help guide me to greater understanding.
__________________
My intentions for sharing these understandings is to grow myself and others closer to God - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and Catholicism, AND to subject these reflections to harsh criticisms regarding alignment with Catholicism, for it is the Truth.
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  #25  
Old Aug 11, '11, 3:30 pm
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

Quote:
=LJN21;4759829]I'm in a bit of a debate and need a definition for "Admonish the Sinner". I looked the CCC and a number of other books and having trouble finding anything close.

I've always been under the opinion it was an obligation to say something when someone has done something blatantly sinful in front of you, like stealing form a store or calling you up to talk about their exploits, that sort of thing.. Not things like, ďI don't think you take your spiritual life seriously enough.Ē

Thoughts?

Sources would be a HUGE help.
Mt. 18: 15-17 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."


We MUST act of sin but always in PRIVATE. If you for uncontroolable circumstances do it it privately; let it go and PRAY for them.

God Bless,
Pat
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A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
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  #26  
Old Sep 25, '11, 7:28 pm
literallynofear literallynofear is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

Hi, jochoa, could you please tell me what is the source of those three criteria you described? Authority, etc.? it seems i've read some criteria that would obligate under a wider set of circumstances.

Also i wanted to point out, in response to an earlier post, that just because something is called an act of mercy doesn't mean you're not obligated to do it under penalty of sin - it looks like the Gospel says whether we clothed the naked, fed the poor, visited the imprisoned, and therefore did the same to Christ, makes all the difference in whether we are getting to Heaven or not. Thanks
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  #27  
Old Sep 25, '11, 7:46 pm
literallynofear literallynofear is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

Also want to throw this out there - if you're admonishing a sinner for a sin that you yourself are currently habitually committing, couldn't you still tell him it's a sin if he doesn't know? There's something to be said for taking the plank out of your own eye first, but maybe, does that just apply to what you should do about you in the situation, and you still can tell inform him that what he's doing is sinful? Of course hypocrisy does take most of the teeth out of an argument for most people, and shows you have a weak faith. But if i were drinking poison should i not tell my neighbor that he's drinking poison too, even if i continue to do it? and then i should stop doing it too, but that's another matter.

Of course in all this I'm not telling anything, i'm asking. I don't know if what i'm suggesting is true.
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  #28  
Old Sep 25, '11, 8:57 pm
jochoa jochoa is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

Quote:
Originally Posted by literallynofear View Post
Hi, jochoa, could you please tell me what is the source of those three criteria you described? Authority, etc.? it seems i've read some criteria that would obligate under a wider set of circumstances.
Thank you very much for asking. I greatly needed to personally Reflect more on these understandings. Please note, that I present these as personal understandings and are by no means official.

I have formed these personal guidelines from Reflection on...
1. The Greatest Commandment: focally Always be Patient and Kind. When admonishing it must be of a Patient and Kind Manner, or else the person admonishing would be committing a sin. This is why we should be patient and wait for the sinner to either seek our advice or submit to our authority.
2. The Purpose of Man: focally Achieve and "Spread the Means" to the Greatest Peace and Happiness. If the person admonishing is Impatient or Mean during the admonishment, s/he will be failing to heighten Our Purpose (in the least by not personally maintaining the Greatest Peace).
3. CCC #1472: focally God's Punishment. God's Methods are the BEST Methods, therefore we should try Our Best to Practice Accordingly. This is where I found justification for the friend/companion admonishing without the sinner requesting assistance. Though I personally think this means of admonishing must be used very cautiously and gently, it is valid in that: If a friend is unwilling to follow the rules of being your friend, you can stop being their friend, while still being patient and kind, if s/he fails to comply with your admonition.

I would also like to offer an update to my understandings.

Regarding the Guidelines of Righteous and Effective of Admonishment
The only time there is an obligation to admonish the sinner is if all the following progressive questions are true:
1. Do you have authority over the sinner or if not, is the sinner seeking your advice, understanding, or companionship? If so, the just opportunity to admonish is open. However, this does not mean you should.
2. Does your interpretation and practice of becoming One with God's Essence accurately represent God and the Faith? If so, you are now at a level of righteous admonishment. And though you most likely will not weaken the sinnerís faith, consider that you may not strengthen it any either.
3. Can you fittingly* admonish in a Godly(patient and kind) manner? If so, you are now at the level of effective, righteous, and Godly Admonishment!
*Judge exactly where the sinner is having difficulty becoming One with God's Love. This could range from determining which aspect of God's Love is not properly understood to misunderstandings of conditional variances of the aspects of God's Love to lack of understanding how to become One with God's Love.

Thank you for your time and consideration. I look forward to hearing your thoughts, and I would greatly appreciate you sharing the criteria, which would encompass a wider obligation. I want my practice to be in full alignment with Church Teachings. So please help me be more considerate!
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My intentions for sharing these understandings is to grow myself and others closer to God - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and Catholicism, AND to subject these reflections to harsh criticisms regarding alignment with Catholicism, for it is the Truth.
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  #29  
Old Sep 25, '11, 9:56 pm
jochoa jochoa is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

Quote:
Originally Posted by literallynofear View Post
Also want to throw this out there - if you're admonishing a sinner for a sin that you yourself are currently habitually committing, couldn't you still tell him it's a sin if he doesn't know? There's something to be said for taking the plank out of your own eye first, but maybe, does that just apply to what you should do about you in the situation, and you still can tell inform him that what he's doing is sinful? Of course hypocrisy does take most of the teeth out of an argument for most people, and shows you have a weak faith. But if i were drinking poison should i not tell my neighbor that he's drinking poison too, even if i continue to do it? and then i should stop doing it too, but that's another matter.

Of course in all this I'm not telling anything, i'm asking. I don't know if what i'm suggesting is true.
I think your understandings are well developed. There is definitely great validity in the concept of admonishing others, even though the person admonishing is failing the same. If the person admonishing genuinely applies the admonishment to his/her life as well, the act can be very holy.
I would still favor the side of caution regarding this scenario for a couple of reasons:
1. If we have an obligation to inform people of their wrongdoings regardless of our livelihood, we would be a very depressed people, for we would be encompassed heavily in negativity.
2. The act of admonishing is of a tempting and addictive nature. One can easily lose sight of the Complete Purpose...and on that note, I, myself, have lost sight of the Complete Purpose and must get to bed so I may do my best for my family and work tomorrow

Thank you for helping me grow in faith, practice, and understanding! I look forward to further discussion.
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My intentions for sharing these understandings is to grow myself and others closer to God - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and Catholicism, AND to subject these reflections to harsh criticisms regarding alignment with Catholicism, for it is the Truth.
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  #30  
Old Sep 26, '11, 1:25 am
Peter Devine Peter Devine is offline
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Default Re: Define "Admonish the Sinner"

To Admonish the Sinner.
My dear friends in Christ, There are more than just the one guideline in Sacred Scriptures than the one I posted a week or two ago on how we are commanded as a Spiritual Work of Mercy, the act of pointing out to our brothers and sisters were they have stayed from the road to heaven. I quoted the verse from the Epistle we read on the day the church celebrates the Feast of St. John Vianney (Ezekiel 3:16-21). I do not see any ifís or butís caused by this choice we ourselves are asked to make. We either tell them they are wrong or we keep quiet and do nothing and we will suffer the cosequence. The freedom to choose between the two is left to us. God will not impose His will on us, we are free to do as He wishes of us or if we ignore His words we will suffer damnation. He tells us we are not to expect spectacular conversions every time we tell a person they are not obeying Almighty Godís law. All we are asked to do is to plant a seed and the rest is left to God and our friendís free will. Our duty is to correct our friends and not expect to see the result every time. In this expectation we are in danger of taking the credit our selves and not just being a humble servant of the Lord.
There are in the Douay-Rheims Concordat 40 verses in the Old and New testaments covering all aspects and circumstances in how we are duty bound in the correction and instruction of our fellow brothers and sisters.
Here are just three more verses: Poverty and shame to him that refuseth instruction; but he that yieldeth to reproof shall be glorified. Prov. 15.5.
Them that sin reprove before all: that the rest may also have fear. Tim. 5.20.
Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart, but reprove him openly, lest thou incur sin through him. Lev. 19.17.
I am a wee bit behind on this topic as I have just burried my dear old mum who would have been 103 years old the day before her Requiem Mass.
Hope the above is of some help.
God bless you all. Peter Devine.
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