Baptism by Blood?

[bilop]

Originally Posted by Dauphin

Not if they obstinately refuse communion with the Roman Pontiff, no. This is the Church's dogmatic teaching.

But, of course, they don't believe they are in schism, and they have efficacious sacraments.

I'm not so sure they are not part of the Church, despite not being part of the visible Church.

I'm not sure that a schismatic, who acts in good faith, and holds to no heresy really does separate from the Church.

God Bless

[Eucharisted]

Originally Posted by Dauphin

Where have I said that Christ did not die for all men or that God's mercy does not extend to all?

"This is contrary to the Church's dogmatic teaching. No one who obstinately denies Catholic doctrine or obstinately remains outside of communion with the Roman Pontiff can be saved."

God has revealed to us the way that men are saved, and it is only through His Church. So, the way of salvation is very much known to us. At the very least, implicit communion with the Church is required.

Concerning unbaptised babies, I hold to the teaching of Limbo, which says that, although unbaptised babies who die do not suffer in hell, they also do not see the beatific vision. The Church hasn't "done away" with Limbo, so there's room for disagreement on this topic.

The Church is the way of salvation, true, but to say God cannot save those outside the Church - who do not even have implicit communion with the Church - is an insult against the omnipotence of God and against the Passion and Death of Christ. For if God cannot save those outside the Church, even those who do not have implicit communion with the Church, than He is not omnipotent, He can only save a few, and to say He can only save a few would be an insult against Christ, who died to redeem all and who opened up heaven for all.

It is through the Church - through her prayers - that God saves those not yet among her fold. Those who do not yet know the gospel are not automatically damned, are they? Certainly not! God saves them by means He alone knows, and this isn't to say we don't know the Church is the Sacrament of Salvation, but rather, it is to say we don't know God's ways; His ways are mysterious! But we can help Him in saving souls by praying for sinners, for the conversion of sinners - yet this isn't to say God isn't omnipotent, but rather, as members of the Body of Christ, that is, the Church, we are required to obtain for many graces, and God works thorugh His creatures, just as through Mary He brought the Messiah and Savior of mankind into the world.

As for limbo, I will not make a theological comment on it, for I am not a theologian. But I will say that the unborn do have a chance to be saved, if only their parents desire the child's baptism and pray, with hope, for the child's salvation. It is an extra-ordinary means of salvation, a great gift of the Mercy of God, who, willing all to be saved, using every means possible to save souls.

[Dauphin]

Originally Posted by Eucharisted

"This is contrary to the Church's dogmatic teaching. No one who obstinately denies Catholic doctrine or obstinately remains outside of communion with the Roman Pontiff can be saved."

You disagree with this? The sins of heresy and schism sever one from the Church. Christ died for all, and God's mercy extends to all, but this doesn't mean that we can deny the Church's faith or sever ourselves from her.

All of this is perfectly compatible with what I said. We don't have a disagreement.

Do you really agree? Let's look at your next statement...

God has revealed to us the way that men are saved, and it is only through His Church. So, the way of salvation is very much known to us. At the very least, implicit communion with the Church is required.

Concerning unbaptised babies, I hold to the teaching of Limbo, which says that, although unbaptised babies who die do not suffer in hell, they also do not see the beatific vision. The Church hasn't "done away" with Limbo, so there's room for disagreement on this topic.

The Church is the way of salvation, true, but to say God cannot save those outside the Church - who do not even have implicit communion with the Church - is an insult against the omnipotence of God and against the Passion and Death of Christ. For if God cannot save those outside the Church, even those who do not have implicit communion with the Church, than He is not omnipotent, He can only save a few, and to say He can only save a few would be an insult against Christ, who died to save all.

No, you've got it completely wrong. The Church believes the Catholic dogma is Divinely revealed. Therefore, it is God who teaches that there is no salvation outside of the Church. Since God cannot contradict himself, he will not save those who are not at least implicitly united to the Church.

To say that God can do something contrary to what he has revealed is an insult against the perfection of God.

It is through the Church - through her prayers - that God saves those not yet among her fold. Those who do not yet know the gospel are not automatically damned, are they? Certainly not! God saves them by means He alone knows, and this isn't to say we don't know the Church is the Sacrament of Salvation, but rather, it is to say we don't know God's ways; His ways are mysterious!

We know what God has revealed, and He has revealed that there is no salvation outside the Church. Maybe you believe that the doctrine of the Church is simply human invention, and doesn't have a Divine origin?

If you're talking about the innocently ignorant, then the Church has always taught that such people can be saved through a baptism of desire, so their salvation is not outside the Church.

[Dauphin]

Originally Posted by bilop

But, of course, they don't believe they are in schism, and they have efficacious sacraments.

I'm not so sure they are not part of the Church, despite not being part of the visible Church.

I'm not sure that a schismatic, who acts in good faith, and holds to no heresy really does separate from the Church.

God Bless

Then you doubt what the Church has defined.

[Eucharisted]

Originally Posted by Dauphin

No, you've got it completely wrong. The Church believes the Catholic dogma is Divinely revealed. Therefore, it is God who teaches that there is no salvation outside of the Church. Since God cannot contradict himself, he will not save those who are not at least implicitly united to the Church.

You are very much like a Protestant, twisting the words of the teaching of Mother Church! Do you honestly believe that God is not omnipotent enough to save all souls? For this is your reasoning. No salvation outside the Church dose not mean those outside the Church are not saved, but rather, it is Christ alone who saves, and because the Church is His Body, it is through the Church that He saves, both the members of His Body and those outside the Church. Again, if God cannot save those outside the Church, than He is not omnipotent, nor would He will to save all - so He woud be contradicting His own Word, for in Scripture we read that God wills to save all.

We know what God has revealed, and He has revealed that there is no salvation outside the Church. Maybe you believe that the doctrine of the Church is simply human invention, and doesn't have a Divine origin?

If you're talking about the innocently ignorant, then the Church has always taught that such people can be saved through a baptism of desire, so their salvation is not outside the Church.

[/quote]

Not only the innocently ignorant can be saved, but even the worst of sinners. The conversion of Saint Paul shows us this, very clearly. The ordinary means of salvation is baptism, but there are extra-ordinary means, which only known to God, so those outside the Church can be saved, for God excludes no one from His Mercy. But if you wish to save those outside the Church cannot be saved, than you would be insulting God's Mercy and showing distrust toward the Lord, as well as mocking the Death of Christ, who opened up heaven for all and has redeemed all.

[bilop]

Originally Posted by Dauphin

Then you doubt what the Church has defined.

No, I doubt how you have interpreted the definition.

I am saying that a schismatic who holds no heretical views, and has acted in the good faith belief that they are following the true Church teachings, has not actually put themselves outside the Church.

They may be out of "earthly" communion, but not out of "spiritual" communion.

God Bless

[Dauphin]

Originally Posted by Eucharisted

You are very much like a Protestant, twisting the words of the teaching of Mother Church! Do you honestly believe that God is not omnipotent enough to save all souls? For this is your reasoning.

Theoreticaly, God can of course do anything. However, He has decided, from eternity, that only those inside the Church can be saved. Since God does not contradict himself, and His truth is eternal, we know that He isn't going to change His mind.

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is a dogma Divinely revealed. Catholics don't believe that the Church just makes these things up.

No salvation outside the Church dose not mean those outside the Church are not saved,

I hope you recognize how ridiculous that sounds.

but rather, it is Christ alone who saves, and because the Church is His Body, it is through the Church that He saves, both the members of His Body and those outside the Church.

This is empty double-speak. You're saying that there is no salvation outside the Church, but those outside the Church are saved. It's absolutely absurd.

You're trying to reduce Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus to a meaningless formula, as Pope Pius XII warned about:

"Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation." - Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis

Again, if God cannot save those outside the Church, than He is not omnipotent, nor would He will to save all - so He woud be contradicting His own Word, for in Scripture we read that God wills to save all.

Again, you're simply ignoring Divine revelation. God could have given us four eyes instead of two, but the key thing is that he didn't. God could have redeemed the world without becoming man, but he didn't. God could save those outside the Church, but he doesn't.

Not only the innocently ignorant can be saved, but even the worst of sinners. The conversion of Saint Paul shows us this, very clearly. The ordinary means of salvation is baptism, but there are extra-ordinary means, which only known to God, so those outside the Church can be saved

This is totally wrong and completely contrary to Divine revelation. Baptism is a necessity of means for salvation:

“If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.” - Canon 5 on baptism from the 7th session of the Council of Trent.

But if you wish to save those outside the Church cannot be saved, than you would be insulting God's Mercy and showing distrust toward the Lord, as well as mocking the Death of Christ, who opened up heaven for all and has redeemed all.

If you say that those outside of even implicit communion with the Church can be saved, you don't hold the Catholic faith. The teaching of the Church is merciful, because it is true.

[Dauphin]

Originally Posted by bilop

No, I doubt how you have interpreted the definition.

I am saying that a schismatic who holds no heretical views, and has acted in the good faith belief that they are following the true Church teachings, has not actually put themselves outside the Church.

They may be out of "earthly" communion, but not out of "spiritual" communion.

God Bless

I'd be interested in hearing how you reconcile this with Unam Sanctam.

[bilop]

Originally Posted by Dauphin

I'd be interested in hearing how you reconcile this with Unam Sanctam.

We know one can be in the Church (for purposes of salvation) without being physically part of the Church, e.g. the Old Testament Patriarchs, St. Joseph and St. John the Baptist (who died before Christ established the Church), and righteous pagans who never heard the Gospel proclaimed. So, EENS doesn't mean that you have to be an actual member of the Catholic Church in this world to be saved.

My speculation is that someone who is in schism, not because of any disagreement with doctrine, but because of disciplinary issues, like the Orthodox or maybe the SSPX, has not actually separated from the Church. The fact that their sacraments remain valid is a real indication that they are not truly separated.

They never wished to separate, and believe they are following true c/Catholic teaching. They believe (erroneously of course) that the institution of the Church separated from them.

If this belief is held in good faith, and they hold to no heresy, I believe they may still be part of the Church, and have a reasonable hope of being saved.

God Bless

[Eucharisted]

Originally Posted by Dauphin

However, He has decided, from eternity, that only those inside the Church can be saved.

Show me a Church document where this is stated, explictly, and I will believe it. If you cannot find a Church document where it is stated, explictly, than I will show you, where in the Catechism, the positive definition of no salvation outside the Church is. (I am hesitate in showing you the paragraph because I know that some Catholics don't like the Catechism, and I don't want to offend you; nonetheless, I will keep to my promise).

[Dauphin]

Originally Posted by bilop

We know one can be in the Church (for purposes of salvation) without being physically part of the Church, e.g. the Old Testament Patriarchs, St. Joseph and St. John the Baptist (who died before Christ established the Church), and righteous pagans who never heard the Gospel proclaimed. So, EENS doesn't mean that you have to be an actual member of the Catholic Church in this world to be saved.

My speculation is that someone who is in schism, not because of any disagreement with doctrine, but because of disciplinary issues, like the Orthodox or maybe the SSPX, has not actually separated from the Church. The fact that their sacraments remain valid is a real indication that they are not truly separated.

They never wished to separate, and believe they are following true c/Catholic teaching. They believe (erroneously of course) that the institution of the Church separated from them.

If this belief is held in good faith, and they hold to no heresy, I believe they may still be part of the Church, and have a reasonable hope of being saved.

God Bless

I still don't think this addresses the dogma. The Church has defined with total clarity that no person who obstinately remains outside of communion with the Roman Pontiff can be saved.

Only innocent ignorance of this or some sort of insurmountable obstacle to communion could possibly eliminate culpability.

[Dauphin]

Originally Posted by Eucharisted

Show me a Church document where this is stated, explictly, and I will believe it. If you cannot find a Church document where it is stated, explictly, than I will show you, where in the Catechism, the positive definition of no salvation outside the Church is. (I am hesitate in showing you the paragraph because I know that some Catholics don't like the Catechism, and I don't want to offend you; nonetheless, I will keep to my promise).

I believe the teaching in the Catechism, and I know exactly what section you're thinking of. It doesn't contradict what I said.

It is possible, for those who by no fault of their own do not know Christ and His Church (ie. who are innocently ignorant), to attain salvation by adhering to the natural Law, living in the fullest conformity possible with God's will, and desiring baptism implicitly. As such, their salvation is inside the Church.

To your question, here is the dogmatic teaching of the Church:

"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." - Fourth Lateran Council

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." - Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her" - 11th Session, Council of Florence

"It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation." - Pope Pius X, Jucunda Sane

[Eucharisted]

You have not given a document where it states that only those within the Church are saved. (It is one thing to say there is no salvation outside the Church, it is quite another to say only those in the Church are saved) Therefore, even though you say you already know the passages, let me show you what the Catechism has to say about salvation:

The universal Sacrament of Salvation

774 The Greek word mysterion was translated into Latin by two terms: mystenum and sacramentum. In later usage the term sacramentum emphasizes the visible sign of the hidden reality of salvation which was indicated by the term mystenum. In this sense, Christ himself is the mystery of salvation: "For there is no other mystery of God, except Christ."196 The saving work of his holy and sanctifying humanity is the sacrament of salvation, which is revealed and active in the Church's sacraments (which the Eastern Churches also call "the holy mysteries"). the seven sacraments are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the head throughout the Church which is his Body. the Church, then, both contains and communicates the invisible grace she signifies. It is in this analogical sense, that the Church is called a "sacrament."

775 "The Church, in Christ, is like a sacrament - a sign and instrument, that is, of communion with God and of unity among all men."197 The Church's first purpose is to be the sacrament of the inner union of men with God. Because men's communion with one another is rooted in that union with God, the Church is also the sacrament of the unity of the human race. In her, this unity is already begun, since she gathers men "from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues";198 at the same time, the Church is the "sign and instrument" of the full realization of the unity yet to come.

776 As sacrament, the Church is Christ's instrument. "She is taken up by him also as the instrument for the salvation of all," "the universal sacrament of salvation," by which Christ is "at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God's love for men."199 The Church "is the visible plan of God's love for humanity," because God desires "that the whole human race may become one People of God, form one Body of Christ, and be built up into one temple of the Holy Spirit."200

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

[Lee M]

Dauphin, our current pope believes that Non-Christians can be saved.

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church also states that Non-Catholics can be saved:

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Do you suggest that our current Holy Father and the Catechism is wrong?

[Lee M]

More from the Catechism:

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330
842The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338