Does God exist?

[Sideline]

Originally Posted by Dameedna

There is no, and never will be any proof of god.

How can you say that there will never be any proof for God? Personally, I think I have to leave the door open to the possibility.

[cerad]

Originally Posted by Sideline

How can you say that there will never be any proof for God? Personally, I think I have to leave the door open to the possibility.

The problem is that if definite proof of god's existence was ever discovered then free will goes in the toilet and we all become robots. Very sad.

[ready]

I believe there is enough proof that God exists. A first cause is necessary for all existence to come to be. Scientifically and mathematically, nothing can come from nothing.

[Sideline]

Originally Posted by cerad

The problem is that if definite proof of god's existence was ever discovered then free will goes in the toilet and we all become robots. Very sad.

I've never understood this line of reasoning.

Actually, that's completely unfair, I do understand this line of reasoning and I think it is wrong. Here's an example.

I injured myself a couple of years ago, and as a result, my lifestyle went from active to sedentary. I also gained sixty pounds. I hate it. If my shoelace become untied I find it hard to bend over and tie them up. I usually sit down or find someplace to put my foot up.

I know the only way to loose the weight. Stop eating junk food and start exercising. It's no great mystery to me. I know how I put the weight on, I know how to take it off. And yet here I am, sitting in front of the computer eating simple carbohydrates while drinking a Dr. Pepper. I know I am consuming more calories than I need. I know that I am eating foods that increase my insulin level which increases fat stores. I know that I am increasing my risk of heart attack, diabetes, and liver problems. My certain knowledge does not equate to certain actions on my part.

If you are a Catholic it stands to reason that you think at least some of the Bible is true. The Bible is filled with stories, that if you believe them, prove that God exists.

Adam and Eve spoke with God in the Garden of Eden, and yet still managed to sin... an exercise of free will presumably.

Cain spoke with God and killed his brother... another exercise of free will, presumably.

Abraham spoke with God, and asked God to be merciful to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah... another act of free will, presumably.

God told Jonah to preach to the people of Ninevah, and he fled away... again, an act of free will.

Jacob wrestled with an angel, or God, depending how you read it... he was probably not a wrestling robot.

The Apostles came face-to-face with a risen Jesus... were they robots forever after?

Certain knowledge is not the same as certain obedience.

[pismopal]

Originally Posted by Squishy

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evidence

You will not be able to provide any evidence thats viable for the eixtence of god, however neither will i be able to provide any that he does not exist. We could argue on the grounds of logic, which people are able to make assumptions on however this is not evidence nor proof.

During our life time the arugment for the existence or non existence of god will go round and round in circles. However one things for sure we will all find out one day

You are wrong..thankfully. There are many in prison convicted on the testimony of eye witnesses and there were eye witnesses to God on earth...uh that would be Jesus..His miracles..his death (as predicted in the Bible) and His rising were all witnessed and the testimony recorded in the Gospels. Some of the best witnesses died as martyrs and never recanted their stories. The " dying declaration" is one of the strongest evidences in California criminal law and that is what you have there. Not just a few principals were witnesses but hundreds.
Now, someone can say that people will live for a lie..sometimes they have something to gain but dying for a lie is another matter. These things are evidence of God's existence and this is what I said the first time. People don't always believe evidence no matter how convincing..heard of OJ Simpson?

[ready]

People have been sentenced to death by electric chair and injection because the jury in a court room unanimously agreed the evidence was sufficient proof of the defendant's guilt. But only God knew (and perhaps others) of the defendant's innocence.

I believe God exists, personally. But proving His existance is tough because there is the opposing argument that others can still be swayed to accept.

[agangbern]

Originally Posted by Dameedna

If I could explain it, I would win a nobel prize. No-one can explain it, but they can verify that it happens.

My friend I have no doubt that the experiences of the religious individual are real. I do not think that EVERY.. SINGLE .. HUMAN ..BEING that claims such an experience is lying.

The problem is the cause of the experience is not proven. Because the individual is already predisposed to belief, and/or they simply are ignorant the REASON for it happening can be very different than their understanding.

An individual with schizophrenia often has delusions they are talking directly with God. A person who takes drugs, can often believe they are flying. And a person who manic depressive, is completely sure of themselves that they can fly a rocket into outerspace.

What this shows us about the human brain is that it is capable of experiences, that do not reflect reality.

IE, religious experiences. They feel real, but they are not based on a real occurence.

It is real for you and honestly I'm happy for you. I'm not trying to take it away from you.

Yes! No matter for example how I may tell you that my shoes is causing great pain on my feet, the experience is only mine. It cannot be proven and I cannot prove it to you unless we have exactly the same size of feet. You may only say that I am pretending or that my experience is not based on real occurrence.

Originally Posted by Dameedna

If your experiences and your subsequent conclusions had no effect on me, and just gave you a belief you would live forever, then I would do what I could to support you. It's a wonderful thing to believe and must bring great peace and happiness to you. I do not wish to take that away from you. I wish I felt the same. But as soon as you begin to hurt people, because of your experience, and your self-proclaimed religious truth and rules..then ..we must verify it.

Yes! Anything that hurts people should not only be verified, but should quickly be stopped. But it is beyond us if Jesus should accept to be crowned with thorns and hanged on the cross because of the truth of God's existence.

[codebilly]

Originally Posted by ready

People have been sentenced to death by electric chair and injection because the jury in a court room unanimously agreed the evidence was sufficient proof of the defendant's guilt. But only God knew (and perhaps others) of the defendant's innocence.

I believe God exists, personally. But proving His existance is tough because there is the opposing argument that others can still be swayed to accept.

Yes His existence can be proven to oneself, but not to others unless He wills it.

How to prove something exists? You must conduct an experiment. Correct?

By what experiment can God be proven? St. John of the Cross, in Ascent of Mt. Carmel, tells us, (and I;m paraphrasing) .. since God is beyond our sensory world, we must search Him not by our senses"

What do you have beside your senses? There are not really 5 senses ... the 6th is your mind. Without your mind, engaging your senses, your senses are non operative.

If you want proof of God, simply renounce material pleasure, immerse yourself in prayer, as much as possible, repent of your sins, and follow Jesus into the desert.

Then, if you are sincere, you for sure will get proof. And your proof will be a great, great big surprise.

[agangbern]

Originally Posted by codebilly

Yes His existence can be proven to oneself, but not to others unless He wills it.

How to prove something exists? You must conduct an experiment. Correct?

By what experiment can God be proven? St. John of the Cross, in Ascent of Mt. Carmel, tells us, (and I;m paraphrasing) .. since God is beyond our sensory world, we must search Him not by our senses"

What do you have beside your senses? There are not really 5 senses ... the 6th is your mind. Without your mind, engaging your senses, your senses are non operative.

If you want proof of God, simply renounce material pleasure, immerse yourself in prayer, as much as possible, repent of your sins, and follow Jesus into the desert.

Then, if you are sincere, you for sure will get proof. And your proof will be a great, great big surprise.

Yeah! I like that...the world is one's laboratory, and oneself is the specimen. The instrument is unceasing prayer and sacrifice. Let us try this and see the proof.

[MegaTherion]

There are so many bad arguments on this thread that it's making my head hurt.

The biggest refrain seems to be that the proof of God is subjective experience.

This bad argument is exemplified here:

Originally Posted by agangbern

Yes! No matter for example how I may tell you that my shoes is causing great pain on my feet, the experience is only mine. It cannot be proven and I cannot prove it

Of course we all have subjective experiences that are real to us. This thread isn't discussing whether subjective experiences happen -- it's discussing whether an entity called god is objectively real (i.e. whether god exists for everybody, not just you).

If you have a pain in your foot, it's only true for you and not all people. Since it's a subjective sensation, no one else can confirm it (we could confirm that you had damaged your foot, but no one else could actually have your experience and confirm that you indeed feel what you claim to feel).

However, when we talk about whether a thing "exists" or not (the thread title), we're talking about objective reality, the things that exist for all people, regardless of belief. That's why, to demonstrate that something exists, you need evidence that is independently verifiable.

For example, my table exists. Anyone can inspect my table and determine that it exists. It doesn't require you to "believe" in my table before I can prove to you that it's real. It is unquestionably real.

If I claimed that I had a table, but the only evidence I had for it was that I had a subjective experience of the table, no one in their right mind would believe that the table exists. Because we do not accept claims that do not have evidence -- independently verifiable evidence.

[MegaTherion]

Originally Posted by codebilly

If you want proof of God, simply renounce material pleasure, immerse yourself in prayer, as much as possible, repent of your sins, and follow Jesus into the desert.

[...]

Then, if you are sincere, you for sure will get proof. And your proof will be a great, great big surprise.

There is nothing else in the entirety of human knowledge that requires you to accept a claim before you can be shown that the claim is true.

If you start from the assumption that god exists, of course you will be able to convince yourself that god exists. That's called a circular argument.

[agangbern]

Originally Posted by MegaTherion

There are so many bad arguments on this thread that it's making my head hurt.

The biggest refrain seems to be that the proof of God is subjective experience.


This bad argument is exemplified here:

Of course we all have subjective experiences that are real to us. This thread isn't discussing whether subjective experiences happen -- it's discussing whether an entity called god is objectively real (i.e. whether god exists for everybody, not just you).

And of course subjective experiences do not happen without objective reality causing it, except of course if we are all schizophrenic. For as long as man exists, the world is composed both of subjective and objective reality. The tile of this thread cannot escape that truth! So, better prepare your head for it.

[agangbern]

Originally Posted by MegaTherion

There is nothing else in the entirety of human knowledge that requires you to accept a claim before you can be shown that the claim is true.

If you start from the assumption that god exists, of course you will be able to convince yourself that god exists. That's called a circular argument.

It is not really a circular argument. Scientists often first formulate a hypothesis or theory. Then they perform an experiment to prove the truth of that theory.

One may perform the same in relation to the truth of God's existence. He first formulate a hypothesis that God exists. Then undertake to verify with his own life whether the hypothesis is true.

[ready]

Jesus raised a man from the dead and Himself was raised from the dead as witnessed by many others - a great number of people at the same time were able to objectively witness to this. He performed many miracles and deliverances that only God could do (or one possessed by the Devil -- if that were possible (Jesus shows us it isn't possible for the Devil to cast out the Devil.)

If you can't accept the testimony of the Bible as factual and that God the Father worked not only through His Son but was of the same essence (that the Father and Sone were one) then there really is no way other way that I can sway you, I guess, -other than your recieving the grace from God another way.

[MegaTherion]

Originally Posted by agangbern

And of course subjective experiences do not happen without objective reality causing it, except of course if we are all schizophrenic. For as long as man exists, the world is composed both of subjective and objective reality. The tile of this thread cannot escape that truth! So, better prepare your head for it.

But our subjective experiences can mislead us.

My subjective experience tells me that the sun goes around the earth -- but we can investigate the (independently verifiable) evidence to determine that the opposite is the case.

My subjective experience gets it wrong pretty often...my senses by themselves (without independent evidence) are a pretty bad judge of things.

The "experience" that most believers speak of seems to be nothing more than heightened emotions. You can easily whip yourself into an emotional frenzy if you passionately pray. You can whip yourself into the same frenzy regardless of what you pray to (Hindus get the same warm and fuzzy feeling that you do when you pray...we've confirmed it with brain scans).

The fact that you can get emotionally worked up doesn't indicate that there's a god.

It is not really a circular argument. Scientists often first formulate a hypothesis or theory. Then they perform an experiment to prove the truth of that theory.

What a horrible analogy. You don't need to have faith in someone else's hypothesis for that person to show you that it is true.

I don't need to believe in relativity in order to be shown that it's real. I can doubt relativity and be extremely hostile to the idea, but once you show me the data, I cannot do anything but accept it.