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  #1  
Old Feb 7, '09, 12:56 pm
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Eucharisted Eucharisted is offline
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Default Allah prays to himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by morning_star777 View Post
It is the real problem my brother,that muslim clerics do not know actually what are they saying.In a book I have read about the salat of Allah.When Muhammed went to Miraz then via firishta allah informed him(Muhammed) that,wait allah is praying Salat.And later this writer explained that allah was praying to himself like "I am allah the most glorious" etc etc.But I still do not understand than How can Allah pray to himself .And later I have asked some clerics and they informed me that Allah can do everything,so it is OK if allah prays to himself.Anyway my friend sam,have you any Idea about that story?Is it supported by Authentic Hadith or just a story?

PS.I have read the story in a bengali book named "Vishsha Nobi"
or universal prophet of prophet for the universe(perhaps it has better English name).And the writer is Gulam Mustafa.Indeed our sister Muslim woman also read that book.
Allah prays to himself, because he can do everything.

With that logic, Allah can contradict himself in the Qu'ran, because he can do everything he wants and Muslims must not question him but only submit to his will.

Now, this idea of absolute divine freedom in Allah is actually self-contradicting, and I'll show you why that is. (We'll get back to prayer in a moment)

Allah is called all-merciful in the Qu'ran (1:2, 15:49, 16:7).

But how do we know he isn't lying? He can do everything, so he could lie.

Or, let's say he isn't lying. Let's say Allah is merciful and forgiving. How do you know he'll forgive you your sins? He can do everything, so even if you're the holiest person alive, you can still go to hell. Allah can turn his back on your good deeds and just let you go to hell. Because though he's compassionate, he dosen't have to be compassionate.

So Allah can contradict himself, and the Qu'ran can very well be a lie Allah told Mohammed. That alone is sufficent to debunk Islam, which would explain why Muslims are called to submit and not to question: if they had knowledge of the truth, they would suddenly see the errors of Islam, and so, they would no longer be Muslims.

But let's get back to Allah praying to himself. I want to show how this is contradicted by Islam itself, not to spite Islam but to show the logic used by Islam.

In Islam, prayer has two purposes: to communicate with Allah and to restrain the believer from doing evil. Allah, being Allah, wouldn't need prayer to communicate with himself. So he can't pray to communicate with himself. He might pray in order to restrain himself from doing evil, but than he is said to be merciful, and of course, yet again he is said to be able to do everything, so perhaps he dose need prayer to stop himself from doing evil - I honestly don't know about this point.

However, there are two other possibilities I can see for Allah praying, the former of which would make sense and the latter of which is (supposedly) an ancient belief about Allah, dating back to pre-Islam. The former reason for Allah praying is this: He wishes to set a good example for believers. Now, this would be fine if it wasn't self-contradicting, since Allah swears by lesser beings but demands everyone to swear by him alone, so that possibility is out the window. The latter reason for Allah praying is this: He is praising his followers before the angels. This would, on face value, make sense, until you realize that prayer is different for Allah and for man: for Allah, prayer means praise and, for man, prayer means prayer. So what we have here is a single word - prayer (salah) - having two different meanings. It would be like taking the word "cow" and saying it means a female cattle for man and cow milk for the cows. It dosen't work.

Interestingly enough, some Muslims say prayer of Allah and prayer of man is connected because as Allah praises his believers, he gives them blessings, that is, he answers their prayers, and this giving of blessing is the connection of prayer between Allah and man. In other words, prayer is communication with Allah because Allah answers the person's prayers, and prayer is praise of Allah's followers because the person dose good (prays). This seems good, until you realize that man is forcing Allah to give him blessing - or, at best, Allah is forcing the man to do good so that he could give him his blessings. And if it is man who is forcing Allah to act, than I wonder who is greater: Allah or a man? Allah wouldn't be bestowing blessings on man, since prayer requires Allah-man, but must force them on man. It is even't a give-and-take scenario, it is forcing.

However you see it, Allah praying to himself makes no sense.

I could go on, but I won't.

Last edited by Eucharisted; Feb 7, '09 at 1:07 pm.
  #2  
Old Feb 7, '09, 1:20 pm
Nicolas Nicolas is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

Remember...your God used to pray to himself 2000 years ago..
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  #3  
Old Feb 7, '09, 1:25 pm
morning_star777 morning_star777 is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

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Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
Remember...your God used to pray to himself 2000 years ago..
Are you talking about Jesus?Lord Jesus was praying to his father "God the holy father".So your claim is invalid,because Jesus prayed to his father,not to himself.thanks.
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  #4  
Old Feb 7, '09, 2:50 pm
AveSantaMaria AveSantaMaria is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

I have a question. Is Allah the same as the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob or is a word for God that good Christians should never use?

Would one want to pray with the Muslims since Allah is God and we are all three worshiping the same God albeit imperfectly (i.e. Muslim prayer reaches Heaven just like Lutheran prayer reaches Heaven despite the fact that the founders of the religions are Luther and Muhammed) and we already pray with the non Catholic Christians and Jews, or would one want to avoid praying to Allah as one does not pray to Krishna, Zeus, or any false god?

Thank you for your post and your research into Islam! Maybe you might suggest the best books for me to read to get started in understanding Islam.
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  #5  
Old Feb 7, '09, 2:57 pm
inJESUS inJESUS is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

Well yes Allah prays:

Narrated AbuHurayrah
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "A thousand years before creating the heavens and the Earth, Allah recited Ta-Ha and Ya-Sin, and when the angels heard the recitation they said, 'Happy are the people to whom this comes down, happy are the minds which carry this, and happy are the tongues which utter this."
Darimi transmitted it (Tirmidhi Hadith)

Dunno if angels existed before God created heaven and earth in islam, but Allah was reciting and it seems the angels knew that Allah will create humans and will send then Jibreel to recite again what Allah has been eternally reciting to Himself.


besides, the "pbuh" that you always read , in Arabic it is literally translated as " Allah prays on him" and because every Arab knows exactly what it means, many translators inserted different words and not the original meaning which is to pray.


Nothing like Allah, and he can do whatever he wants so he prays, recites the Quran (his eternal word) , swears by horses and their hooves, swears by Muhammad and allows him to have feelings for a married woman, gives him more sexual proviledges than any human on this planet, after all, Muslims have to hear and obey because Allah can do whatever he wants..
  #6  
Old Feb 7, '09, 3:00 pm
inJESUS inJESUS is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

We Arab Christians use the word Allah in the same way you refer to Him as God in English..it's part of the Arabic language not some kind of a proper noun or something.
  #7  
Old Feb 7, '09, 3:11 pm
inJESUS inJESUS is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eucharisted View Post
The latter reason for Allah praying is this: He is praising his followers before the angels. This would, on face value, make sense, until you realize that prayer is different for Allah and for man: for Allah, prayer means praise and, for man, prayer means prayer. So what we have here is a single word - prayer (salah) - having two different meanings. It would be like taking the word "cow" and saying it means a female cattle for man and cow milk for the cows. It dosen't work.
take this example from the Quran:

Allah and His angels pray on the Prophet; O you who believe! pray on him and salute him with a salutation.

The passage refers to three distinct groups that perform sallat (prayer) upon Muhammad:

1. Allah sends down or performs sallat on Muhammad.

2. Angels send down or perform sallat on Muhammad.

3. Believers are to send down or perform sallat on Muhammad

Shouldn't the 3 be doing exactly the same thing because the same words are used or was it Allah who failed to differentiate between words in his most eloquent and masterpiece of books? Muslims will tell you that when it refers to Allah, it means "something else" which means Allah failed to communicate his idea by using the wrong verb and Islamic scholars have to turn round the bush to get out of this verb that renders many people and translators uneasy by claiming that the same verb means different things in the same sentence when in fact the explanations they use have clear Arabic words used elsewhere in the Quran.
  #8  
Old Feb 7, '09, 5:29 pm
ronyodish ronyodish is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

Quote:
We Arab Christians use the word Allah in the same way you refer to Him as God in English..it's part of the Arabic language not some kind of a proper noun or something.
To add to the above, it is true that Allah is just the Arabic word for God. Just like in Greek, Theos is the word for God, and in Latin, it's Deus, and so in Arabic, it's Allah.

In Syriac (Aramaic), the word for God among the "Eastern Syriacs" is: Alaha. Among the "Western Syriacs", it is: Aloho.

In Hebrew, it is El, or Eloah, or Elohim.

God bless,

Rony
  #9  
Old Feb 8, '09, 12:07 pm
inJESUS inJESUS is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

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Originally Posted by ronyodish View Post
To add to the above, it is true that Allah is just the Arabic word for God. Just like in Greek, Theos is the word for God, and in Latin, it's Deus, and so in Arabic, it's Allah.

In Syriac (Aramaic), the word for God among the "Eastern Syriacs" is: Alaha. Among the "Western Syriacs", it is: Aloho.

In Hebrew, it is El, or Eloah, or Elohim.

God bless,

Rony
since the recitation of the Quran is similar to some Eastern Syriac hymns, it could be well that Allah is the Arabic derivation from the Syriac language.
  #10  
Old Feb 8, '09, 12:56 pm
morning_star777 morning_star777 is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by inJESUS View Post
Well yes Allah prays:

Narrated AbuHurayrah
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "A thousand years before creating the heavens and the Earth, Allah recited Ta-Ha and Ya-Sin, and when the angels heard the recitation they said, 'Happy are the people to whom this comes down, happy are the minds which carry this, and happy are the tongues which utter this."
Darimi transmitted it (Tirmidhi Hadith)

Dunno if angels existed before God created heaven and earth in islam, but Allah was reciting and it seems the angels knew that Allah will create humans and will send then Jibreel to recite again what Allah has been eternally reciting to Himself.


besides, the "pbuh" that you always read , in Arabic it is literally translated as " Allah prays on him" and because every Arab knows exactly what it means, many translators inserted different words and not the original meaning which is to pray.


Nothing like Allah, and he can do whatever he wants so he prays, recites the Quran (his eternal word) , swears by horses and their hooves, swears by Muhammad and allows him to have feelings for a married woman, gives him more sexual proviledges than any human on this planet, after all, Muslims have to hear and obey because Allah can do whatever he wants..
So here we have found a hadith from Tirmidhi,one of the purest 6 hadith books.But I will not be surprised if any Muslim will say that,this hadith is not authentic .
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  #11  
Old Jun 12, '11, 8:47 am
Abrahamic_Unity Abrahamic_Unity is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

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Originally Posted by inJESUS View Post
since the recitation of the Quran is similar to some Eastern Syriac hymns, it could be well that Allah is the Arabic derivation from the Syriac language.
Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic.
Hebrew & Arabic derive from Aramaic.
Aramaic derives from Phoenician. Aramaic script was widely adopted for other languages and is ancestral to both the Arabic and modern Hebrew alphabets.The earliest Aramaic alphabet was based on the Phoenician script. In time, Aramaic developed its distinctive 'square' style. The ancient Israelites and other peoples of Canaan adopted this alphabet for writing their own languages. Thus, it is better known as the Hebrew alphabet today. This is the writing system used in Biblical Aramaic and other Jewish writing in Aramaic. The other main writing system used for Aramaic was developed by Christian communities: a cursive form known as the Syriac alphabet

The western regional dialects of Aramaic followed a similar course to those of the east. They are quite distinct from the eastern dialects and Imperial Aramaic. Aramaic came to coexist with Canaanite dialects, eventually completely displacing Phoenician in the 1st century BCE and Hebrew around the turn of the 4th century CE. From the late 7th century CE onwards, Aramaic was gradually replaced as the lingua franca of the Middle East by Arabic.

Levant Arabic dialect such as Lebanese, Syrian & Palestinian of today have retained many Aramaic words and Lebanese Arabic dialect has retained many Phoenician words and grammar structure. A lot of Arabic words are identical to the Phoenician words. All of these languages listed are Semitic languages.
  #12  
Old Jun 12, '11, 4:44 pm
Inishfree Inishfree is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

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Originally Posted by inJESUS View Post
We Arab Christians use the word Allah in the same way you refer to Him as God in English..it's part of the Arabic language not some kind of a proper noun or something.
That is what I thought too. Allah is the arabic word for God. Same God that Jews and Christians believe in.
  #13  
Old Jun 12, '11, 8:01 pm
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MartinJordan MartinJordan is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

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Originally Posted by Inishfree View Post
That is what I thought too. Allah is the arabic word for God. Same God that Jews and Christians believe in.
Yes, it also understood where I live that Allah is the same God, but Islam has a different understanding for God as he is not a Father.

Also someone can correct me if Im wrong but I thought the word Allah was used by Arabic speakers who were Christian before Muslims came in the respective lands. Right?

MJ
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  #14  
Old Jun 12, '11, 9:53 pm
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John Paul Jones John Paul Jones is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

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Originally Posted by inJESUS View Post
We Arab Christians use the word Allah in the same way you refer to Him as God in English..it's part of the Arabic language not some kind of a proper noun or something.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa, a Jesuit who celebrates both Roman and Maronite rites, who is multilingual and speaks languages including Latin, Koine Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Ugaritic, said that Alla used by some Christians and allah from islam are faux amis (false cognates.) He gave a interesting talk on it. And really I don't know if they have two different origins for each word or not.
  #15  
Old Jun 13, '11, 12:32 pm
Inishfree Inishfree is offline
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Default Re: Allah prays to himself

Thanks to everyone for the posts. You explained, so that I could even understand.
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