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  #1  
Old Feb 12, '09, 6:26 am
Justafool Justafool is offline
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Default What does sacred mean.

To be a good Catholic or Christian, do I have to believe in supernatural entities like talking snakes, ten headed monsters and all the other miracles that scripture tells us about?

Do I have to believe that this is good policy--

Deuteronomy 21
18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

God's policy is more like the penalty should fit the crime.
Is this overkill?
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  #2  
Old Feb 12, '09, 7:34 am
Fidelis Fidelis is offline
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Default Re: What does sacred mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justafool View Post
To be a good Catholic or Christian, do I have to believe in supernatural entities like talking snakes, ten headed monsters and all the other miracles that scripture tells us about?
To be a good Catholic or Christian when it comes to reading the Bible, one does not approach it in a fundamentalist mindset. Some Christians do (a small but vocal minority in the world), but that is another topic.

Properly reading the Scriptures entails doing enough serious study and enquiry that one can tell when things like you mentioned above are supposed to be taken literally, or are meant as a literary device used to make a point.

Quote:
Do I have to believe that this is good policy--

Deuteronomy 21
18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

God's policy is more like the penalty should fit the crime.
Is this overkill?
Yes, you would have to believe this as good policy --if you were an under-educated strict biblical literalist.

As it turns out, Jewish commentators on this passage point out that there is no evidence that any Jewish parent has ever, ever carried this out. Why not? Because Jews are fond of hyperbole and they know that the point of this injunction is, not to carry it out to the letter, but to drive home the point that if you are such a negligent parent to have produced such a scoundrel, this is what kind of scandal it would produce. No person who is trying to live a godly life (and that is who the Scriptures are addressed to) would want that and would subsequently do all he could to raise up his child the right way.

Hope that helps.
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  #3  
Old Feb 12, '09, 8:06 am
06convert 06convert is offline
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Default Re: What does sacred mean.

Not to mention that this is Old Testment law, which a large portion of are superceded by the teachings of Jesus:

We are taught to be forgiving, understanding, compassionate, To not judge, or kill. To love our neighbor. These teachings bring us to a higher stage of spiritual development than that of the ancient Hebrews.

As far as the talking snakes and 10 headed monsters, here is what is in the CCC about Witchcraft:

All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone. (CCC 2116)

All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others—even if this were for the sake of restoring their health—are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity. (CCC 2117)
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  #4  
Old Feb 12, '09, 10:04 am
Justafool Justafool is offline
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Default Re: What does sacred mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidelis View Post
To be a good Catholic or Christian when it comes to reading the Bible, one does not approach it in a fundamentalist mindset. Some Christians do (a small but vocal minority in the world), but that is another topic.

Properly reading the Scriptures entails doing enough serious study and enquiry that one can tell when things like you mentioned above are supposed to be taken literally, or are meant as a literary device used to make a point.

Yes, you would have to believe this as good policy --if you were an under-educated strict biblical literalist.

As it turns out, Jewish commentators on this passage point out that there is no evidence that any Jewish parent has ever, ever carried this out. Why not? Because Jews are fond of hyperbole and they know that the point of this injunction is, not to carry it out to the letter, but to drive home the point that if you are such a negligent parent to have produced such a scoundrel, this is what kind of scandal it would produce. No person who is trying to live a godly life (and that is who the Scriptures are addressed to) would want that and would subsequently do all he could to raise up his child the right way.

Hope that helps.
I thought that most RC read literally. Thank God they don't.

How do you interpret Jesus dying for our sins. This too cannot be literal for it would mean all of us adding weight to the cross instead of helping him carry it. The right thing to do. we are after all, all responsible for our own sins.
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  #5  
Old Feb 12, '09, 10:08 am
Justafool Justafool is offline
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Default Re: What does sacred mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06convert View Post
Not to mention that this is Old Testment law, which a large portion of are superceded by the teachings of Jesus:

We are taught to be forgiving, understanding, compassionate, To not judge, or kill. To love our neighbor. These teachings bring us to a higher stage of spiritual development than that of the ancient Hebrews.

As far as the talking snakes and 10 headed monsters, here is what is in the CCC about Witchcraft:

All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone. (CCC 2116)

All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others—even if this were for the sake of restoring their health—are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity. (CCC 2117)
If we do not judge then how do we know we are on the right path?

Is hell and the virgin birth also part of the supernatural, not to forget the resurrection.
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  #6  
Old Feb 12, '09, 10:16 am
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Mystic Warrior Mystic Warrior is offline
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Default Re: What does sacred mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justafool View Post
If we do not judge then how do we know we are on the right path?

Is hell and the virgin birth also part of the supernatural, not to forget the resurrection.
Christianity has to be taken as a whole. You need to study it from beginning to end for any of it to make true sense. Along with study, faith and an open mind are keys to wisdom. If you were to be given blueprints for a building and told to build one from scratch, without having the slightest idea of what a building is, not to mention the materials that it consists of, how would you ever construct the building? That's where you are right now.
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  #7  
Old Feb 12, '09, 10:55 am
Justafool Justafool is offline
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Default Re: What does sacred mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic Warrior View Post
Christianity has to be taken as a whole. You need to study it from beginning to end for any of it to make true sense. Along with study, faith and an open mind are keys to wisdom. If you were to be given blueprints for a building and told to build one from scratch, without having the slightest idea of what a building is, not to mention the materials that it consists of, how would you ever construct the building? That's where you are right now.
And here I thought that you did not believe in miracles and the like. You sneak. LOL.
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