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  #1  
Old Feb 16, '09, 12:38 pm
Allan M Allan M is offline
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Default The great apostasy

Hi all, correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but has there not been many catholic mystics, visionaries,and "prophets" throughout the centuries that have predicted a great apostasy in the church? Do you think we could be looking at it right now? With the apparent "strength" (which is actually weakness) of the liberals, open and vocal descent from priests, brothers,sisters,bishops, theologians, and lay alike? or do you think it is just the media giving the liberals a voice and avoiding those loyal to the Holy Father?
You;re thoughts and comments.
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  #2  
Old Feb 16, '09, 1:32 pm
Yours Truly Yours Truly is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

In the affirmative.
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  #3  
Old Feb 16, '09, 2:23 pm
IrishDude45 IrishDude45 is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

I think we are indeed looking at it right now. We must pray for many traditional and holy priests to lead us through.



Pax Vobiscum
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  #4  
Old Feb 16, '09, 2:32 pm
mardukm mardukm is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan M View Post
Hi all, correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but has there not been many catholic mystics, visionaries,and "prophets" throughout the centuries that have predicted a great apostasy in the church? Do you think we could be looking at it right now? With the apparent "strength" (which is actually weakness) of the liberals, open and vocal descent from priests, brothers,sisters,bishops, theologians, and lay alike? or do you think it is just the media giving the liberals a voice and avoiding those loyal to the Holy Father?
You;re thoughts and comments.
I hope you understand that "the Great Apostasy" means just that - a TOTAL rejection of Jesus Christ. The liberalism in Western Catholic society, though sad and greatly troubling, is not apostasy.

Blessings,
Marduk
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  #5  
Old Feb 16, '09, 2:36 pm
Allan M Allan M is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

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Originally Posted by mardukm View Post
I hope you understand that "the Great Apostasy" means just that - a TOTAL rejection of Jesus Christ. The liberalism in Western Catholic society, though sad and greatly troubling, is not apostasy.

Blessings,
Marduk
Is that the definition of apostasy? a total rejection? Have the protestants not been described as apostates and they don't reject Christ.
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  #6  
Old Feb 16, '09, 2:37 pm
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FightingFat FightingFat is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

The great apostasy sounds very LDS to me!

I think we should take a moment to consider the great expanse of time there has been a Catholic Church. Now think about the changes of the last 40 years and compare them to the last 150, the last 250, the last 400, the last 1400.

We live in the shadow of one of the great councils of the Church and we're still working stuff out. Let be faithful, let's be Catholic, let's trust in God!
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  #7  
Old Feb 16, '09, 3:11 pm
Allan M Allan M is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

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Originally Posted by FightingFat View Post
The great apostasy sounds very LDS to me!

I think we should take a moment to consider the great expanse of time there has been a Catholic Church. Now think about the changes of the last 40 years and compare them to the last 150, the last 250, the last 400, the last 1400.

We live in the shadow of one of the great councils of the Church and we're still working stuff out. Let be faithful, let's be Catholic, let's trust in God!
Those are wise words fat fighter.
Has there been similar after shocks in the wake of other councils?
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  #8  
Old Feb 16, '09, 4:01 pm
Discerner Discerner is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

[quote=FightingFat;4820367]The great apostasy sounds very LDS to me!

IQUOTE]

What is LDS?

I tend to think we're on the verge.

The fact that 30% of Catholics believe in the real presence these days is depressing. Please Papa Benedict! Save our Church from heresies!
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  #9  
Old Feb 16, '09, 4:04 pm
mardukm mardukm is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan M View Post
Is that the definition of apostasy? a total rejection? Have the protestants not been described as apostates and they don't reject Christ.
I believe the Council of Trent called them heretics, not apostates. I think the Catholic hierarchy has always known the difference.

Blessings,
Marduk
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  #10  
Old Feb 16, '09, 4:42 pm
Yours Truly Yours Truly is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan M View Post
Hi all, correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but has there not been many catholic mystics, visionaries,and "prophets" throughout the centuries that have predicted a great apostasy in the church? Do you think we could be looking at it right now?
Actually, I want to change my answer. I don't think we are in THE great apostasy. I think we are in a prefigurement of it. This is clear from many prophecies that predicted our time, and the time to come.

I expect a physical chastisement, followed by a great restoration of the Church. This has been predicted by too many saints throughout the ages to ignore. Not only has the current crisis been predicted (even the actual date), but so too has the restoration that is to come. If I am not mistaken, the sign to watch for is France getting so bad that they turn to the Pope for help. If I recall, they request that the Pope help them select a leader. This will be the beginning of the turn around, and will eventually be followed by a restoration that is described as miraculous, and beyond imagination.
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  #11  
Old Feb 16, '09, 5:06 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

If the Great Apostasy has happened then it means Christ lied about the Church when he told Peter the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.
As another poster said Apostasy is not liberal ideas, corruption and need for reform and its not a process.
Apostasy is instant and it would mean the Catholic Church has fallen.
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  #12  
Old Feb 16, '09, 9:28 pm
Ottaviani Ottaviani is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

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Originally Posted by thistle View Post
If the Great Apostasy has happened then it means Christ lied about the Church when he told Peter the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.
As another poster said Apostasy is not liberal ideas, corruption and need for reform and its not a process.
Apostasy is instant and it would mean the Catholic Church has fallen.
were are you getting Apostasy as being instant? there have always been apostates in the Church, and where ever you find Apostates, you don't find the Church. So, if the Catholic church were to fall, EVERY member, ordained or laity, would have to be in apostasy.
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  #13  
Old Feb 16, '09, 9:47 pm
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Eucharisted Eucharisted is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

Signs that are to precede the general judgment

The Scriptures mention certain events which are to take place before the final judgment. These predictions were not intended to serve as indications of the exact time of the judgment, for that day and hour are known only to the Father, and will come when least expected. They were meant to foreshadow the last judgment and to keep the end of the world present to the minds of Christians, without, however, exciting useless curiosity and vain fears. Theologians usually enumerate the following nine events as signs of the last judgment:

General preaching of the Christian religion
Concerning this sign the Saviour says: "And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come" (Matthew 24:14). This sign was understood by Chrysostom and Theophilus as referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, but, according to the majority of interpreters, Christ is here speaking of the end of the world.

Conversion of the Jews
According to the interpretation of the Fathers, the conversion of the Jews towards the end of the world is foretold by St. Paul in the Epistle to the Romans (11:25-26): "For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, . . . that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob".

Return of Enoch and Elijah
The belief that these two men, who have never tasted death, are reserved for the last times to be precursors of the Second Advent was practically unanimous among the Fathers, which belief they base on several texts of Scripture. (Concerning Elijah see Malachi 4:5-6; Sirach 48:10; Matthew 17:11; concerning Enoch see Sirach 44:16)

A great apostasy
As to this event St. Paul admonishes the Thessalonians (2 Thessalonians 2:3) that they must not be terrified, as if the day of the Lord were at hand, for there must first come a revolt (he apostasia).The Fathers and interpreters understand by this revolt a great reduction in the number of the faithful through the abandonment of the Christian religion by many nations. Some commentators cite as confirmatory of this belief the words of Christ: "But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?" (Luke 18:8).


The reign of Antichrist
In the passage above mentioned (2 Thessalonians 2:3 sqq.) St. Paul indicates as another sign of the day of the Lord, the revelation of the man of sin, the son of perdition. "The man of sin" here described is generally identified with the Antichrist, who, says St. John (1 John 2:18), is to come in the last days. Although much obscurity and difference of opinion prevails on this subject, it is generally admitted from the foregoing and other texts that before the Second Coming there will arise a powerful adversary of Christ, who will seduce the nations by his wonders, and persecute the Church.

Extraordinary perturbations of nature
The Scriptures clearly indicate that the judgment will be preceded by unwonted and terrifying disturbances of the physical universe (Matthew 24:29; Luke 21:25-26). The wars, pestilences, famines, and earthquakes foretold in Matthew 24:6 sq. are also understood by some writers as among the calamities of the last times.

The universal conflagration
In the Apostolic writings we are told that the end of the world will be brought about through a general conflagration, which, however, will not annihilate the present creation, but will change its form and appearance (2 Peter 3:10-13; cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:2; Apocalypse 3:3, and 16:15). Natural science shows the possibility of such a catastrophe being produced in the ordinary course of events, but theologians generally tend to believe that its origin will be entirely miraculous.

The Trumpet of Resurrection
Several texts in the New Testament make mention of a voice or trumpet which will awaken the dead to resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; John 5:28). According to St. Thomas (Supplement 86:2) there is reference in these passages either to the voice or to the apparition of Christ, which will cause the resurrection of the dead.

"The sign of the Son of Man appearing in the heavens"
In Matthew 24:30, this is indicated as the sign immediately preceding the appearance of Christ to judge the world. By this sign the Fathers of the Church generally understand the appearance in the sky of the Cross on which the Saviour died or else of a wonderful cross of light.
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  #14  
Old Feb 16, '09, 9:57 pm
Wintersdemise Wintersdemise is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan M View Post
Hi all, correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but has there not been many catholic mystics, visionaries,and "prophets" throughout the centuries that have predicted a great apostasy in the church? Do you think we could be looking at it right now? With the apparent "strength" (which is actually weakness) of the liberals, open and vocal descent from priests, brothers,sisters,bishops, theologians, and lay alike? or do you think it is just the media giving the liberals a voice and avoiding those loyal to the Holy Father?
You;re thoughts and comments.
What Mystics prophecized a great apostasy in the Church? I'd like to know just for reference.

I know St. Malachy made a prophecy about how many popes there will be til the end of the world. If he is correct, then we only have one more pope after Benedict XVI!
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  #15  
Old Feb 17, '09, 12:26 am
mardukm mardukm is offline
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Default Re: The great apostasy

Dear brother Ottaviani,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottaviani View Post
were are you getting Apostasy as being instant? there have always been apostates in the Church, and where ever you find Apostates, you don't find the Church. So, if the Catholic church were to fall, EVERY member, ordained or laity, would have to be in apostasy.
I believe brother Thistle only means that it will be an identifiable event. And Scripture says as much.

For the sake of those who might be confused by the discussion:

Please understand that the Great Apostasy does NOT refer to the Church apostasizing. Apostasy by its very defintion CANNOT refer to an apostasy WITHIN the Church. Apostasy means you have left the Church, and are no longer part of it.

Blessings,
Marduk
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