"Why does there have to be a God?"

[Oreoracle]

Originally Posted by davidv

Because I, like many others, value truth over falsehood.

Good, now let's continue. Why should we value truth over falsehood? Would you say the truth makes you happier by making achievements easier?

[davidv]

Originally Posted by Oreoracle

Good, now let's continue. Why should we value truth over falsehood? Would you say the truth makes you happier by making achievements easier?

I will answer by way of a hypothetical.
I work in a large multi-national company. Suppose my supervisor comes to me tomorrow and says "I need you to modify your goals for this year to better align them with department objectives." Now suppose he harbors some dislike for me, but this dislike has nothing to with my job performance or company ethics.

So, based on the discussion we have, we agree on a new set of objectives. Then I diligently begin working on these goals. Mid-year review time comes along and I get favorable feedback on my progress. Based on this I continue my work.

The end of the year arrives and my supervisor informs me that I have not achieved my goals and I am going to be fired. (The truth being that he lied to me about what my goals were.)

The end result of the falsehood is that I am without a job, a burden to society as I collect unemployment insurance and I didn't further the legitimate objectives of the company.

I am happy because of the falsehood?

[Oreoracle]

Originally Posted by davidv

I will answer by way of a hypothetical.
I work in a large multi-national company. Suppose my supervisor comes to me tomorrow and says "I need you to modify your goals for this year to better align them with department objectives." Now suppose he harbors some dislike for me, but this dislike has nothing to with my job performance or company ethics.

So, based on the discussion we have, we agree on a new set of objectives. Then I diligently begin working on these goals. Mid-year review time comes along and I get favorable feedback on my progress. Based on this I continue my work.

The end of the year arrives and my supervisor informs me that I have not achieved my goals and I am going to be fired. (The truth being that he lied to me about what my goals were.)

The end result of the falsehood is that I am without a job, a burden to society as I collect unemployment insurance and I didn't further the legitimate objectives of the company.

I am happy because of the falsehood?

I see, and the suffering was amplified because you would have been collecting unemployment, as you said. Would you say that this is the reason that honesty is considered a virtue--it leads to effective communication, which leads to productivity, which leads to happiness? After all, each only has meaning if the next is involved, am I right?

[davidv]

Originally Posted by Oreoracle

I see, and the suffering was amplified because you would have been collecting unemployment, as you said. Would you say that this is the reason that honesty is considered a virtue--it leads to effective communication, which leads to productivity, which leads to happiness?

That is one of the reasons. Another reason is that is pleases others. Another is that it leads to true happiness.

After all, each only has meaning if the next is involved, am I right?

No. Each of these has meaning independent of the others.

[Oreoracle]

Originally Posted by davidv

That is one of the reasons. Another reason is that is pleases others. Another is that it leads to true happiness.

Would you say that the knowledge that you please others gives you pleasure?

No. Each of these has meaning independent of the others.

I myself am not so certain. I value productivity because it is what keeps me alive by providing shelter, food, etc. However, I only value life for the happiness I will attain during its course. Even if I said that my purpose in life is to serve others, I would only say so because helping others gives me pleasure/happiness.

[tomarin]

Originally Posted by Oreoracle

Moral sense can be explained by emotivism. In other words, "killing is wrong" is another way of saying "Boo! I dislike killing!" These emotions likely stem from biological characteristics.

I don't see why it's any more likely than a supernatural explanation. There isn't any scientific evidence that morality resides in our biology, for example (not that that disproves it). I think reducing our moral instincts to biology seems to explain the phenomenon, but doesn't really explain it at all.

We can't logically use "good" in the same sense that we could use "round" to describe a ball, or "salty" to describe sea water. Instead, good and bad seem to be our emotional response in relation to an object, or anything concrete. Since emotion cannot be measured, as it is abstract, all ethics are considered subjective by Hume. I could ask a question, and, with your answers that will follow, you'll see what I mean (actually, anyone could jump in and answer.

I think you might be setting me up for a "poisoning the well"-type situation here. It's hard to separate morality from emotion; but that doesn't necessarily mean they're not independent of each other.

Here goes: Why should we value God's word?

I value it because I want to be on the side of truth, goodness and beauty in this life.

[Oreoracle]

Tomarin, if you look at the discussion davidv and I are having, you'll see where I'm going with this.

[tomarin]

Originally Posted by Oreoracle

Tomarin, if you look at the discussion davidv and I are having, you'll see where I'm going with this.

I have been following it, or trying to -- but I think you're going to have to spell it out for me.

[Oreoracle]

Originally Posted by tomarin

I have been following it, or trying to -- but I think you're going to have to spell it out for me.

Keep in mind that I don't mean to speak for David when I tell you this. We took the initial maxim--"I should abide by God's word"--and I asked "why value God's word?" He seemed to be telling me that he valued God because he valued truth. Again, I asked "why value truth?" He explained by giving me a hypothetical scenario in which falsehood caused suffering, and, had the truth been told, happiness would have followed instead. Admittedly, I have been pressing him, but it seems to me that truth is only valuable if it is used to cause happiness or reduce suffering. I also pointed out that I only feel that my life is valuable if I am experiencing or expecting to experience happiness. I'm sure that if someone were forced to respond honestly, they'd say the same, even if the only happiness they felt is the pleasure they get from helping others.

If I can prove hedonism in this way, it would seem that every ethical system is truly subjective, because the value of each thing lies only in its ability to increase one's happiness, and happiness is not objectively valuable. It is an emotion that seeks to justify itself.

[tomarin]

Originally Posted by Oreoracle

Admittedly, I have been pressing him, but it seems to me that truth is only valuable if it is used to cause happiness or reduce suffering.

My admittedly emotional response to that is: that's utilitarianism, and utilitarianism is immoral. But obviously saying such a thing would be putting the cart before the horse, since we haven't established the objectivity of morality.

[tomarin]

As a follow-up, why then is genocide or abortion wrong? If there's no objective morality then nothing is really wrong. Can I commit genocide with a clear conscience? That appears to be an absurd statement to me but it seems to follow from what you're saying.

[Jean Anthony]

The OP seems to have run its course and the thread has gone far off topic. Please feel free to take side discussions to new threads or join existing one of interest. Thank you, all.