"Catholics" and the right to choose?

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by Sheeniac

Unfortunately, I know several Catholic and non Catholics Christian women who are pro-choice. We are all in our early 40s/late 30s. All are weekly mass/service attenders.

However, we are from a "lost generation" born in the 60s. Please pray for my friends!

You are absolutely on the target. The distance we Christians (I speak most directly regarding Catholics) grew away from our faith since the 1960's is astronomical when you look back on it. It first began as a personal separation in the whole peace and love, sex, drugs and rock and roll mentality. Then it became complacency by many in standing back not wanting to openly get involved in fighting issues we didn’t necessarily support then further grew into a lack of moral limitations, enjoying the convenience of things such as artificial birth control over abstinence and such as that. Today many Christians of all denominations live as though it is more morally acceptable to have an abortion than to practice abstinence and many since it’s been legally recognized take abortion so lightly that they have multiple abortions yet fail to even practice birth control. Yet if we returned to our morality and defended our Christian teachings there is no politician in the country that would chance loosing re-election knowing the majority (which we are) would not support him or her. So it truly is our responsibility if we vote for them.

As far as the Church going beyond its authority to attempt to direct us morally, we are children of God first and foremost and we are NOT to be as the Pharisees and Sadducees or of this world as the Bible proclaims. To be otherwise and claim to be Catholic or Christian is arrogant, and a lack of knowledge and respect for the teachings of God.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by NFPgirl

As I said above, a well-formed conscience means that Church teaching goes everywhere in our lives. We, as Catholics, are to live our lives according to the Church's teachings. If you (generic you, not you personally) don't like it, no one is keeping you here.

I'm afraid your reply indicates pretty clearly that you don't understand my point. It had nothing to do with conscience. It had to do with people who attempt to misrepresent (at best) or lie (at worst) about Church teaching to try to force their personal beliefs on others and calling it Catholicism.

A perfect example is Fr Newman's overreach in the wake of President Obama's election. The current Pope has said:

"When a Catholic does not share a candidate's stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons."

So clearly it is possible that a well-informed Catholic could indeed have voted for Obama (and before him Kerry) without sinning if he or she did so for other reasons, reasons that the individual Catholic considered proportionate.

Originally Posted by NFPgirl

I'm inclined to agree with the priest who told his parishioners that they needed to go to confession if they voted for Obama. I don't believe there is any good reason that anyone who is a serious Catholic and truly seeks to follow what the Church teaches regarding abortion could have voted for Obama in good conscience and without committing a grave sin.

The Pope disagrees with both of you. It is not your place to tell other Catholics what they should and shouldn't find to be proporotionate reasons. Just as it isn't the pllace of others to dictate the terms of your personal conscience to you.

Furthermore, when Fr Newman claims his parishioners were in a state of mortal sin because they voted for Obama, he was in fact committing the sin of calumney

Similarly, your assertion:

I'm just putting it like the Church puts it. Basically, if all the candidates are pro-abortion, THEN and ONLY THEN can you use other issues to decide your vote. Abortion is the issue that pretty much trumps all the other issues -- war, the economy, education, health care, etc.

is simply, incorrect. That is not what the Church teaches. Charity compels me to believe that you are simply misinformed. But it is a serious problem when people misrepresent (intentionally or unintentionally) the teaching of the Church to suit their own personal views and use that misrepresentation as a stick to accuse others of sin.
.
[/quote]You want to know one of the biggest reasons abortion happens? Because it is convenient. It is legal and available in most places in the US and not only that, it's funded by the government to a certain extent. Planned Parenthood funds abortions quite a lot in this country and provides them in certain locations. If a woman gets pregnant and doesn't want the baby, no problem! Get an abortion! The convenient accessibility of abortion also makes it easier for boyfriends, husbands, parents, and friends who think a woman doesn't need a baby she's carrying to pressure her into an abortion that she may not want. [/quote]

If you really want to have this particular debate, kindly cite me some reliable references for your assertions and we can have a reasonable, rational debate from which we may both learn something.

My main point is about overzealous people who are either careless with their assertions (at best) or willingly lie to advance their personal belief systems (at worst), so not expect me to support abortion in the debate, but I do strongly believe in carefully researching and telling the truth about complex situations.

[Ockham]

Originally Posted by BillP

IMy main point is about overzealous people who are either careless with their assertions (at best) or willingly lie to advance their personal belief systems (at worst), so not expect me to support abortion in the debate, but I do strongly believe in carefully researching and telling the truth about complex situations.

The truth is Obama was the most pro-abortion senator in history. It may have been the only legislation he didn't vote "Present". Any well informed voter should have known that. By lifting all requirements he is essentially condoning infanticide - state sanctioned murder- and anyone who voted for him has blood on their hands.

[LindaSK]

Originally Posted by Ockham

The truth is Obama was the most pro-abortion senator in history. It may have been the only legislation he didn't vote "Present". Any well informed voter should have known that. By lifting all requirements he is essentially condoning infanticide - state sanctioned murder- and anyone who voted for him has blood on their hands.

I must agree with this. Obama made no secret as to his stand on abortion. Others were more inconsistent in their votes and in their rhetoric, but he left no margin to guess where his feelings lie. He was and continues to be very clearly pro-abortion. Nobody should act so surprised.

While the Church cannot tell people whom they should vote for, the Church is expected to present the truth. The Church clearly is pro-life and sees that as a priority, not just during elections, but in everyday living. It would seem to me that complacency in this and any other moral issue constitutes a sin of omission. "Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me."(Matthew 25:45) My conscience would not allow me to vote for Obama. But, if I just sit back and say it is not my fault, so I don't need to do anything, I'm just as guilty as those who voted for him in the first place! So, I send letters and emails to Representatives and the President, write Letters to the Editor of our local paper, post pro-life literature and bumper stickers and talk with people, and support our local center providing abortion alternatives. And I pray a lot. I'm not writing this to brag. I just get tired of people who complain, but don't do anything constructive. I really get frustrated with those who see abortion as somebody else's issue, especially good 'Christians.' How can we get people to put themselves in the place of a baby who is about to be killed by abortion? (I could mention other situations such as child and spousal abuse, individuals killed or injured by drunk drivers, etc., but they are not the subject here.) What happened to the Golden Rule? What happened to the commandment given by Christ at the Last Supper?

This season of Lent seems to be a good time to remember these teachings and obligations of the Church - yes, each one of us is part of the body of Christ. Thankfully, our priest is targeting many of these fundamentals. So far, I haven't seen anyone walk out! Father even has slips of paper with acts to perform that he hands out to everyone each Sunday of Lent after Mass - for example: speak to someone of the Faith, pray for those who are hurting, call shut-ins, tell family members you love them, do an act of kindness for a neighbor without being asked and without their knowledge, etc. He is trying to encourage us to be active rather than passive.

Let us all go do something positive and not just expect the other guy to do it! BE the 'other guy!'

God bless

[Jesus N Cherie]

Originally Posted by BillP

I'm afraid your reply indicates pretty clearly that you don't understand my point. It had nothing to do with conscience. It had to do with people who attempt to misrepresent (at best) or lie (at worst) about Church teaching to try to force their personal beliefs on others and calling it Catholicism.

A perfect example is Fr Newman's overreach in the wake of President Obama's election. The current Pope has said:

So clearly it is possible that a well-informed Catholic could indeed have voted for Obama (and before him Kerry) without sinning if he or she did so for other reasons, reasons that the individual Catholic considered proportionate.



The Pope disagrees with both of you. It is not your place to tell other Catholics what they should and shouldn't find to be proporotionate reasons. Just as it isn't the pllace of others to dictate the terms of your personal conscience to you.

Furthermore, when Fr Newman claims his parishioners were in a state of mortal sin because they voted for Obama, he was in fact committing the sin of calumney

Similarly, your assertion:


is simply, incorrect. That is not what the Church teaches. Charity compels me to believe that you are simply misinformed. But it is a serious problem when people misrepresent (intentionally or unintentionally) the teaching of the Church to suit their own personal views and use that misrepresentation as a stick to accuse others of sin.
.

You want to know one of the biggest reasons abortion happens? Because it is convenient. It is legal and available in most places in the US and not only that, it's funded by the government to a certain extent. Planned Parenthood funds abortions quite a lot in this country and provides them in certain locations. If a woman gets pregnant and doesn't want the baby, no problem! Get an abortion! The convenient accessibility of abortion also makes it easier for boyfriends, husbands, parents, and friends who think a woman doesn't need a baby she's carrying to pressure her into an abortion that she may not want. [/quote]

If you really want to have this particular debate, kindly cite me some reliable references for your assertions and we can have a reasonable, rational debate from which we may both learn something.

My main point is about overzealous people who are either careless with their assertions (at best) or willingly lie to advance their personal belief systems (at worst), so not expect me to support abortion in the debate, but I do strongly believe in carefully researching and telling the truth about complex situations.[/quote]



Actually, the pope disagrees with you. You have very outdated information. There was a whole slew of much newer words from the Vatican and the USCCB during the presidential campaign about abortion being the issue that trumps all other issues.

Many "Catholics" who wanted to support Obama took things from the Vatican and the USCCB totally out of context, and left half of the message out. Then you claim that we are the ignorant ones.
Do you honestly believe that Jesus believes it is more important to vote for someone as radically pro abortion as Obama's record proves him to be, simply because he CLAIMS to care about feeding the poor....which again, his record has shown he cares nothing about?
Do you believe that God has so little regard for human life?

One of the Ten Commandments says "Thou shalt not kill"
None of the Commandments says "Thou shalt not be hungry"

[sawman]

Dear Bill P.
You are wrong in your assertions about Catholic Teaching, the authority of the Church, and in the primacy of your judgement over that of the Majesterium. I'll not quote or cite any documents because it is too tedius. your argumrnts are not credible, and have every scent of political prevarication typical of the Democrat party. Your statements are in most cases talking points from the democratic machine. I consider any attempt to persuade someone to vote for the death party, objectionable. I hope that you are able to wise up soon. Your soul is at stake.
Tom

[fix]

Originally Posted by BillP

So clearly it is possible that a well-informed Catholic could indeed have voted for Obama (and before him Kerry) without sinning if he or she did so for other reasons, reasons that the individual Catholic considered proportionate.

Those proportionate reasons must be objective, not subjective. The Pope did not say we each get to come up with private rationalizations. He was simply restating traditional moral theology.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by fix

Those proportionate reasons must be objective, not subjective. The Pope did not say we each get to come up with private rationalizations. He was simply restating traditional moral theology.

"proportionate reasons" cannot possibly be objective. Do you really not think (then) Cardinal Ratzinger was incapable of saying "No Catholic can vote for a pro-choice politician if a pro-life one in running"? If that is what he meant, if that was Catholic teaching, that's what he would have said, don't you think?

But he didn't say that. Furthermore, people who insist that that's actually what he meant have just entered the "cafeteria". Those people are trying to warp the Church's actual teaching to fit better with their world view.

[Ockham]

This isn't a grey area. Obama made his pro-abortion position quite well known. He said the first thing he'd do as president is sign the FOCA. He doesn't even believe in medical treatment to survivors of abortion. The man is evil and if you voted for him then you've assisted a mass murderer.

[Ockham]

“Canon law is clear. Supporting so-called abortion rights is intrinsically evil, and obstinate persistence in grave, manifest sin requires denial of Holy Communion. For pro-abortion public figures to be allowed to receive Holy Communion is a huge scandal. How many people have taken this as a form of silent consent?”

Michael Hichborn, American Life League.

[Ignatius]

Originally Posted by sawman

Dear Bill P.
You are wrong in your assertions about Catholic Teaching, the authority of the Church, and in the primacy of your judgement over that of the Majesterium. I'll not quote or cite any documents because it is too tedius. your argumrnts are not credible, and have every scent of political prevarication typical of the Democrat party. Your statements are in most cases talking points from the democratic machine. I consider any attempt to persuade someone to vote for the death party, objectionable. I hope that you are able to wise up soon. Your soul is at stake.
Tom

Well said. We all need to be praying about this scandal which is misleading many Catholics, http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=317986

[Ignatius]

Originally Posted by BillP

Do you really not think (then) Cardinal Ratzinger was incapable of saying "No Catholic can vote for a pro-choice politician if a pro-life one in running"? If that is what he meant, if that was Catholic teaching, that's what he would have said, don't you think?

But he didn't say that. .

In other words, you will not comply with Church teaching unless it is stated in exactly the formof "No Catholic can vote for a pro-abortion politician when a pro-life alternative is available". What would be your argument then? http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=317986

[Ignatius]

Originally Posted by BillP

Do you really not think (then) Cardinal Ratzinger was incapable of saying "No Catholic can vote for a pro-choice politician if a pro-life one in running"?

In other words, you will not comply with Church teaching unless it is stated in exactly the formof "No Catholic can vote for a pro-abortion politician when a pro-life alternative is available". The Holy Father, Pope John Paul II before him, and the constant and crystal clear teaching of The Catholic Church has been that abortion is an intrinsic evil and is never justified under any circumstances. It is completely unambiguous. http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=317986

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by BillP

"proportionate reasons" cannot possibly be objective. Do you really not think (then) Cardinal Ratzinger was incapable of saying "No Catholic can vote for a pro-choice politician if a pro-life one in running"? If that is what he meant, if that was Catholic teaching, that's what he would have said, don't you think?

But he didn't say that. Furthermore, people who insist that that's actually what he meant have just entered the "cafeteria". Those people are trying to warp the Church's actual teaching to fit better with their world view.

First let me say that one of the reasons we have come to this place in time with so many Catholics practicing by their own opinion is because in the not too distant past the Church tried to be more "politically correct" which you are going to find changing as time goes on. The Church is RESPONSIBLE to guide the faithful, period. This ridiculous idea that a Catholic is a Christian except when it is not convenient is only acceptable to that Catholic and if anyone thinks the Word (God) is flexible, study closely. If a Catholic knowingly supports abortion directly or indirectly he or she is in fact committing grievous sin. I SAID KNOWINGLY NOW. The Church made it clear that if this president was elected his primary intention was to relax all the restrictions against abortion and this was the man who compared pregnancy to nothing more than an unwanted mistake and a burden. The Bible has always in both the OT and the NT reflected on a child as a gift from God and I re post the following;

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you.
(Jeremiah Ch 1: 4-5)

Thus says the LORD,
Your redeemer, who formed you from the womb: I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens; when I spread out the earth, who was with me? (Isaiah Ch 44: 24)

5 For your own lifeblood, too, I will demand an accounting: from every animal I will demand it, and from man in regard to his fellow man I will demand an accounting for human life. 6 If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made. (Genesis CH 9: 5-6)

Now how whould you like the Church to present this to you? Its ok to vote against life as long as the other issues are covered ?

If a person finds abortion more morally acceptable than abstinence, there is no morality and one of the most critical teachings (reflected in the commandments) is to love and thou shalt not kill. Our president did exactly what the Church said he would and within less than 48 hours we became a country that not only supports abortion legally but will financially support abortion both within our country and outside our country as well. Those who voted for him have a hand in that whether we like it or not and remember as Jesus said, do not be like the pharisees, claim to be one thing but live another. Do you think God's word if fixable? Our tax dollars now will pay for abortions around the world. DO you think if Christians stood together against abortion there would be any politician who would support it, no way.

[twb1621]

I think it is interesting to note the Readings for yesterday Saturday March 7th, 2009;

Reading 1
Dt 26:16-19

Moses spoke to the people, saying:
"This day the LORD, your God,
commands you to observe these statutes and decrees.
Be careful, then,
to observe them with all your heart and with all your soul.
Today you are making this agreement with the LORD:
he is to be your God and you are to walk in his ways
and observe his statutes, commandments and decrees,
and to hearken to his voice.
And today the LORD is making this agreement with you:
you are to be a people peculiarly his own, as he promised you;
and provided you keep all his commandments,
he will then raise you high in praise and renown and glory
above all other nations he has made,
and you will be a people sacred to the LORD, your God,
as he promised."