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  #1  
Old Mar 4, '09, 3:27 pm
mawst mawst is offline
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Default How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

Please cite your sources:

How Many Catholics died in the Holocaust?

How Many Jews died in the Holocaust?

Thank you.
God Bless.
  #2  
Old Mar 4, '09, 4:31 pm
Verbum Verbum is offline
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

Hi M,

When we speak of the Holocaust or Shoah, we refer to the extermination of Jews, who were singled out for this purpose. Many Christians (including Catholics) suffered at the hands of Nazi Germany, but they were generally not singled out as such, unless, as many did, they opposed the regime for religious reasons.

At any rate, I don't see why this forum should be interrogated on this subject as if its members spent most of their time on the crimes of Nazi Germany. Are you gathering material for a term paper? Go to a library.

Verbum
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  #3  
Old Mar 4, '09, 4:38 pm
Roman_Catholic Roman_Catholic is offline
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mawst View Post
Please cite your sources:

How Many Catholics died in the Holocaust?

How Many Jews died in the Holocaust?

Thank you.
God Bless.
Would you include those who died fighting it? Either way, I don't have a number, just curious.

God bless
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  #4  
Old Mar 4, '09, 5:32 pm
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DavidFilmer DavidFilmer is offline
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mawst View Post
How Many Catholics died in the Holocaust?
Catholics weren't specifically persecuted. Some Catholics of Jewish ancestry were sent to the camps (such as St. Theresa Benedictia) and some Catholics were sent because they had participated in nazi opposition activities (such as St. Maxililian Kolbe). But, AFAIK, there wasn't a time when Catholics were indiscriminately rounded up and sent off to the camps.
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Old Mar 4, '09, 5:54 pm
CentralFLJames CentralFLJames is offline
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

I am hearing that its starting to come out that millions of Catholics and thousands of priests were in fact rounded up for being Catholic (and exterminated or died under harsh conditions) and that this history is being deliberately suppressed through intimidation by certain interests groups. Apparently some don't want to have any other ethnic or religious groups share in their persecution for concern that it might diminish their sense of being the only victims. I can't quote sources since I am only recently hearing this anectodally from 2nd hand accounts from older Catholics who had family involved in various European countries.


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  #6  
Old Mar 4, '09, 9:12 pm
mawst mawst is offline
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralFLJames View Post
I am hearing that its starting to come out that millions of Catholics and thousands of priests were in fact rounded up for being Catholic (and exterminated or died under harsh conditions) and that this history is being deliberately suppressed through intimidation by certain interests groups. Apparently some don't want to have any other ethnic or religious groups share in their persecution for concern that it might diminish their sense of being the only victims. I can't quote sources since I am only recently hearing this anectodally from 2nd hand accounts from older Catholics who had family involved in various European countries.


James
Yes this is the sort of thing that I'm after. I read somewhere a very large number - that over half as many as the Jews.


Verbum: I will continue to use the forums in conformance with the rules. You are not obligated to answer.

The specific purpose I am seeking reliable numbers is because people on another forum where I do Catholic Apologetics, are calling Hitler a Catholic. So in addition to what I have already said to clarify the issue, I thought quoting some numbers that are reliable might further illustrate the point. Additionally I will be using it on my personal apologetics page, under "Nazi Lutheranism"

http://sites.google.com/site/apostol...zi-lutheranism

None of this is intended to lessen or minimize the Shoah for anyone. It's a mere interest in the less often discussed reality.

One of the advantages of places like this forum, and the internet in general, is the ability to quickly gather information when people of common interest have probably already done the legwork, it hardly seems like a poor decision on my part to ask my brothers.

God bless both of you.
  #7  
Old Mar 4, '09, 10:17 pm
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LilyM LilyM is offline
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralFLJames View Post
I am hearing that its starting to come out that millions of Catholics and thousands of priests were in fact rounded up for being Catholic (and exterminated or died under harsh conditions) and that this history is being deliberately suppressed through intimidation by certain interests groups. Apparently some don't want to have any other ethnic or religious groups share in their persecution for concern that it might diminish their sense of being the only victims. I can't quote sources since I am only recently hearing this anectodally from 2nd hand accounts from older Catholics who had family involved in various European countries.


James
Well, plenty of Orthodox died in the German invasion of Russia, and in fighting in other parts of Eastern Europe, for one. I suppose they've been similarly targeted?

The Jews were the ONLY people specifically targeted along ethno-religious lines - it's not like there was a 'final solution' proposed in regards to the Catholics or Orthodox or anything. So I don't think most Jews would see ackowledging the Catholics or Orthodox who died as in any way a threat.

Would the total number of other victims of WWII even equal the six million who died in the Shoah?
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  #8  
Old Mar 5, '09, 12:20 am
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Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

By far most Catholics killed were not killed for being Catholic, they were killed for being Polish 'Untermenschen' (sub-humans).
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Old Mar 5, '09, 12:25 am
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DavidFilmer DavidFilmer is offline
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

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Originally Posted by mawst View Post
I read somewhere a very large number - that over half as many as the Jews.
You are reading lies. That is absolutely absurd.

I challenge anyone to provide a verifiable name of just one single Catholic who was sent to a nazi camp only on the basis of the fact that s/he was Catholic. Sure, Catholics were sent to the camps, but their faith was not the deciding factor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mawst View Post
on another forum where I do Catholic Apologetics, are calling Hitler a Catholic.
HItler was raised by Catholic parents and baptized in the Catholic Church. However, once he gained independence from his parents, he never attended Mass. He never sought any of the Sacriments of the Church (for example, he was married in a civil ceremony).

AFAIK, Hitler never repudiated the Catholic Church, nor did he ever affiliate himself with any other denomination. So I suppose he could be considered an "inactive Catholic" (as so many folks today could be likewise considered).
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  #10  
Old Mar 5, '09, 12:47 am
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LilyM LilyM is offline
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

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Originally Posted by Kaninchen View Post
By far most Catholics killed were not killed for being Catholic, they were killed for being Polish 'Untermenschen' (sub-humans).
That's more or less the distinction that I was trying to make as well. A serious qualitative difference. You wouldn't feel that the significance of the Holocaust was negated in any way by the mention that significant numbers of Catholics died as well, would you?
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  #11  
Old Mar 5, '09, 12:55 am
mardukm mardukm is offline
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

I don't know why there are those here who are trying to separate the Catholic Faith from the fact that Catholics opposed Nazi practices.

To be truly Catholic, one must oppose the Nazis.

It's absurd to say that Catholics died under the Nazis not because they were Catholics.

Marduk
  #12  
Old Mar 5, '09, 12:59 am
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LilyM LilyM is offline
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mardukm View Post
I don't know why there are those here who are trying to separate the Catholic Faith from the fact that Catholics opposed Nazi practices.

To be truly Catholic, one must oppose the Nazis.

It's absurd to say that Catholics died under the Nazis not because they were Catholics.

Marduk
Like I said, still a qualitative difference. No-one was attempting to basically eradicate all of European Catholicism entirely by exterminating every last Catholic in Europe - no one was putting out propaganda branding Catholics as a group as subhuman, out of a pathological hatred for it qua Catholicism.
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  #13  
Old Mar 5, '09, 1:04 am
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mardukm View Post
It's absurd to say that Catholics died under the Nazis not because they were Catholics.
Their Catholic convictions may have led them to oppose the nazis, and thus they were killed, but they were killed because of their opposition, not because of their Catholic faith. Many protestants (and atheists) were also killed for such opposition.

Few, if any, were killed by the nazis ONLY because they professed the Catholic Faith. The nazis did not round up and kill Catholics just because they were Catholic.
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  #14  
Old Mar 5, '09, 1:07 am
Squishy Squishy is offline
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

Being put in a cencentration camp is one thing. And many catholics where for many different reasons. But they never suffered the things like what we saw at Auschwitz-Berkinow, where people of jewish origins where transported on trains straight to their deaths. The majority of them never spent more than 2 hours inside the camps.

I was actually their in December last year. One thing that stuck in my mind (well lots did but i dont want to speak about them) is the germans buracracy. They kept meticulous records of all the people comeing in. Who they where, where they where from ect.

Religions in all shapes and forms suffered under nazi germany. But none aproching that which the jews experienced. The years directly after the Wall street crash of 1929 where very hard for germany. It had relied a lot of loans from the states. What hitler was able to do in this time though, was start to paint the jews as scapegoats. When he came to power a few years later he was gradually able to pass laws that made them a target for vengence. See night of the broken glass. By the time the war had started many people already viewed them as less than human. Which ment that noone questioned when they started to dissapear into the camps.

Anyone who claims that catholic suffered under nazi germany is right. So did homosexuals, gypsies, the infirm. And most of all the impresionable young. EDIT But none even beggining to approch the jews

As regarding hitler being a catholic. Hitler was a man. He was born into a catholic family. But that hardly makes him a catholic. Clearly he did not hold the same beliefs the church did. So i do not see what relevence it has to any discusion. Except mabey an autobiography of him.
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Old Mar 5, '09, 1:32 am
mardukm mardukm is offline
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Default Re: How many Catholic died inthe Holocaust?

If my opposition is based on my CATHOLIC belief, and I was imprisoned for that opposition, I was imprisoned for my CATHOLIC belief. We are Catholics because of our belief. Thus I would have been imprisoned BECAUSE I was Catholic.

Catholics were persecuted BECAUSE they were Catholics.

Some Catholics did not express their beliefs as well as other Catholics. In fact, many Catholics were part of the SS. These, I believe were excommunicated latae sententiae and were no longer Catholic. Those who were true Catholics could not stand by idly, and because of their Catholicism, they were called to action. These were persecuted or died BECAUSE they were Catholics. And they are considered martyrs. Catholic Churches, schools, seminaries, and hospitals were forcibly closed by Nazis. You can't tell me these actions were not done against Catholics for being Catholics.

Klu Klux Klan members actively despise Catholics because of our beliefs, just as much as they despise blacks because of their skin.

Marduk
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