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  #46  
Old Jan 16, '05, 11:32 am
LutheranStudent LutheranStudent is offline
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Default Luther's Apocrypha

Here is a site for anyone interested. It deals with Luther's sceptiscism of the Apocryphal books:

http://www.ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%2...0canon%202.htm

~Lutheran Student
  #47  
Old Jan 16, '05, 12:03 pm
LutheranStudent LutheranStudent is offline
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Default Edit: Reply to Katholikos

Sorry I mistyped: Please edit my reply to Katholicos from {your offical Bible for thousands of years} to {your official Bible for over a thousand years}. I could probably improve my credability if I would proof-read my posts, eh?
  #48  
Old Jan 16, '05, 12:09 pm
wonkimoto wonkimoto is offline
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Default Re: different Protestant...

I'm so glad I came back to the Catholic Church. I'm reminded how so many people who haven't liked one pope, or one doctrine, had decided to become their own pope or re-word their own doctrine using their own intellect. Too bad so many people really believe they are to be congradulated for keeping the Faith pure. I guess all one really needs to be an Athansius, Is a Bible and a few sheep. Or do they?
  #49  
Old Jan 16, '05, 1:30 pm
LutheranStudent LutheranStudent is offline
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Default My Own Athanasius?

Pardon my sarcasm, wonkimoto, but ouch that cuts deep. If it offers any comfort, I'm glad you've gone back to the Catholic church, too. Anyone who is unwilling to explore why they believe what they believe certainly belongs there. Pardon again to John Ennis, Katholikos and others who are acctually grasping for a greater understanding.

Now, if you can handle making intelligent comments that contribute to the discussion (as opposed to baseless jabs,) I have two challenges for you, a small one and a big one:

The small one would be to identify where I have used my own intellect in any of my answers. You may be right, I am human, I can err. But, for the most part I have cited only Scripture as my reason. I have also cited the intellect of some of the church fathers, which Lutherans do not prefer to do, but being Catholics you surely can't fight them: They are completely inerranous ~ every last contradicting one of them! (Sarcasm, again, excuse me.)

The larger challenge would be to read "The Foolishness of God" by Doctor Siegbert Becker. It is a very good book that explores the place of reason in interpreting Scripture. I think you will find that Lutherans are rational people who do alot less rationalizing than your church does.

God's blessings nonetheless,
Lutheran Student
  #50  
Old Jan 16, '05, 1:54 pm
john ennis john ennis is offline
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Default Re: Reply to Katholikos

Quote:
Originally Posted by LutheranStudent
PS- All that being said, I think it is my turn to issue the challenge. I think that it is high time that you used my church fathers to prove that the apostolic succesion is a concept of the true Christian faith. Maybe you've heard of my church fathers: (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, Barnabas, etc.)

"It is by grace you have been saved, through faith. This is not of yourselves - it is a gift of God." Apostle Paul
But you know already that we reject as self-contradictory the idea that all MUST be capable of being proven in Scripture. Since we hold that Scripture doesn't insist on this as you do, we readily submit that apostolic succession may not be explicitly called for there.

Indeed, I could challenge you to use your own (though they're really yours and mine) fathers to prove that Matthew, Mark, Luke, et al are indeed really writings of true fathers. This knowledge we get from the very Tradition which you deny as authoritative.

Peace.
John

Last edited by john ennis; Jan 16, '05 at 1:58 pm. Reason: mistake
  #51  
Old Jan 16, '05, 2:14 pm
LutheranStudent LutheranStudent is offline
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Default Who wrote the books?

John,
I am assured that the books of the Bible are written by the Apostles and by Paul. Although we are not exactly sure who wrote what book, the books obviously attest to being written by someone who was present at the time. Paul, a Roman citizen, included his name in all of his letters. The gospel writers, on the other hand, followed Jewish tradition and did not refer to themselves as "I" while they were recounting the events. So while it may be true that the early church goofed (perhaps John actually wrote Matthew, for example,) it is definite that these books were written by Apostles of Christ.

God's Blessings ~
Lutheran Student

PS- This will be my last post until at least next weekend. I am attending college in my spare time, you know. God's blessings until then.
  #52  
Old Jan 16, '05, 2:36 pm
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Default Re: My Own Athanasius?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LutheranStudent
Pardon my sarcasm, wonkimoto, but ouch that cuts deep. If it offers any comfort, I'm glad you've gone back to the Catholic church, too. Anyone who is unwilling to explore why they believe what they believe certainly belongs there. Pardon again to John Ennis, Katholikos and others who are acctually grasping for a greater understanding.
Hey...I DID do the "exploration" that to mentioned and I found my way back to the Catholic Church. Your comment implies that we are all a pack of dummies that don't think for ourselves, which if you've ever hung out with a bunch of us for a long while you quickly find is anything BUT the case. I returned to Catholicism because protestantism and all it's non-denom variants is just a load of people leading each other around with opinions that have no basis in the early church or what the apostles' disciples believed and followed. Personally, I think it oughtta be called The DEFORMATION because of the harm done to the body of Christ as a result. I hear preachers today talk about being under submission to those set in authority over them in the body of Christ and wonder how it is that they can even talk about such a thing after having become part of the very movement that removed itself from the divinely appointed authority instead of remaining within the church to help fix the problems. I am little impressed by the non-Catholic preachers that I hear, (That I made the mistake of listening to for about 34 years of my life!) who pull Bible passages out of context and teach others that that is the way it's supposed to be done, which has led to some of the most sad and ridiculous teachings in the history of Christianity.

So frankly I sure as life eternal don't think that a return to communion with Rome would be worse that the rampant rotting disease that consumes our separated brethren more an more every day.
Pax vobiscum.

P.S. Modern Lutherans don't even believe the same things that Luther did. WHY?
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  #53  
Old Jan 16, '05, 2:40 pm
john ennis john ennis is offline
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Default Re: Reply to John Ennis

Quote:
Originally Posted by LutheranStudent
Yes, St. Augustine, who stated positively that the entire word was NOT contained in Scripture! (I'll cite you the document, and many others from other Fathers, if you like.)

By all means, John, cite away. Also realize that Augustine changed alot of his ideas as he got to know more and more of Scripture. Please also see my answer to Katholikos.

God's blessings, John

~ Lutheran Student
Okie Dokie:

AUGUSTINE
The custom of not rebaptizing converts...may be supposed to have had its origin in apostolic tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Chruch, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings. (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 5:23[31][A.D. 400])

But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of whcih is quite vital in the Chruch." (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400])

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM
Paul commands, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or by our letter. From this it is clear that they did not hand down everything by letter, but there is much also that was not written. Like that which was written, the unwritten too is worthy of belief. So let us regard the tradition of the Church also as worthy of belief. Is it a tradtion? Seek no further." (Homilies on Second Thess. [A.D. 402])

...and Iranaeus in AD189, and Athanasius in 330, and Epiphanius in 375...but, Student, if as I said all who spoke on the issue assert that Scripture does not contain the entire Word--if no one in fourteen centuries screamed that this was heretical, would you consider it possible? Is your own interpretation of Scripture, or your own private philosophical analysis, so infallible, that you cling to this new doctrine we call Sola Scriptura?

Oh, and:
This is related to the OT books Luther didn't? remove:
AUGUSTINE
We read in the books of the Maccabees that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured fourth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place. (The Care to be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421])

So Augustine in the early fifth century had Maccabees in his Bible. Too bad Luther was 1000 years too late to tell him Maccabees isn't Scriptural. (Fascinating, isn't it, that Luther admired this heretic who believed in praying for the dead, and even following practices based only on the authority of the Church?)
  #54  
Old Jan 16, '05, 4:49 pm
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Little Mary Little Mary is offline
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Default Re: different Protestant...

To the OP and to Curious:

Go to www.biblechristiansociety.com and get the tapes or CD's that interest you. Apropos to this topic might be the tape entitled One Church but you might fine Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide interesting as well.

Hope that helps.

LM
  #55  
Old Jan 16, '05, 5:26 pm
LutheranStudent LutheranStudent is offline
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Default Church Fathers

Dear Church Militant,
You are partially correct; I responded to a jab by taking a jab myself, and I apologize. Certainly many of the devout Catholics in this forum deserve a great deal of credit for researching thier faith. You see, admittedly came into this forum with a bias against Catholicism due largely to the fact that many of my neighbors are Catholics. They go to church once or twice a year and have probably never even heard of many of the church fathers. My relatives are Catholic, and after seeing in a (Lutheran) funeral bulletin recently that Lutherans to not accept the Apocrypha, they had to ask me whether Catholics believe in it or not. This led me to believe that most Catholics accept Catholic teaching on the sole basis that it has been taught for a long time. It is people like John Ennis who have convinced me otherwise. I sincerely apologize if I have offended any of my Christian Brethren out there.

~Lutheran Student

Last edited by LutheranStudent; Jan 16, '05 at 5:37 pm.
  #56  
Old Jan 16, '05, 5:31 pm
LutheranStudent LutheranStudent is offline
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Default Church Fathers and Sola Scriptura

Dear John,
I did some research on St. Augustine and found that you are correct - He certainly did believe that the apostles handed down some oral traditions. However, I see no evidence that he supported oral tradition as an authority over Scripture. Here are some lovely "Sola Scriptura" quotes from the fathers:


ST. IRENAEUS OF LYONS (130-202)


We have known the method of our salvation by no other means than those by whom the gospel came to us; which gospel they truly preached; but afterward, by the will of God, they delivered to us in the Scriptures, to be for the future the foundation and pillar of our faith. (Adv. H. 3:1) Read more diligently that gospel which is given to us by the apostles; and read more diligently the prophets, and you will find every action and the whole doctrine of our Lord preached in them. (Adv. H. 4:66)

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (150?-213?)
They that are ready to spend their time in the best things will not give over seeking for truth until they have found the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves. (Stromata 7:16:3)
ORIGEN (185?-252)


In which (the two Testaments) every word that appertains to God may be required and discussed; and all knowledge may be understood out of them. But if anything remain which the Holy Scripture does not determine, no other third Scripture ought to be received for authorizing any knowledge or doctrine; but that which remains we must commit to the fire, that is, we will reserve it for God. For in this present world God would not have us to know all things. (Orig. in Lev., hom. 5, 9:6)

We know Jesus Christ is God, and we seek to expound the words which are spoken, according to the dignity of the person. Wherefore it is necessary for us to call the Scriptures into testimony; for our meanings and enarrations, without these witnesses, have no credibility. (Tractatus 5 in Matt.)

No man ought, for the confirmation of doctrines, to use books which are not canonized Scriptures. (Tract. 26 in Matt.)

As all gold, whatsoever it be, that is without the temple, is not holy; even so every notion which is without the divine Scripture, however admirable it may appear to some, is not holy, because it is foreign to Scripture. (Hom. 25 in Matt.) Consider how imminent their danger is who neglect to study the Scriptures, in which alone the discernment of this can be ascertained. (in Rom. 10:16)

ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (200?-258)
Whence comes this tradition? Does it descend from the Lord’s authority, or from the commands and epistles of the apostles? For those things are to be done which are there written. ... If it be commanded in the gospels or the epistles and Acts of the Apostles, then let this holy tradition be observed. (Ep. 74 ad Pompeium)

HIPPOLYTUS ( -230?)
There is one God, whom we do not otherwise acknowledge, brethren, but out of the Holy Scriptures. For as he that would possess the wisdom of this world cannot otherwise obtain it than to read the doctrines of the philosophers; so whosoever of us will exercise piety toward God cannot learn this elsewhere but out of the Holy Scriptures. Whatsoever, therefore, the Holy Scriptures do preach, that let us know, and whatsoever they teach, that let us understand. (Hip. tom. 3, Bibliotheque Patrium, ed. Colonna)

ST. ATHANASIUS OF ALEXANDRIA* (300?-375)


The Holy Scriptures, given by inspiration of God, are of themselves sufficient toward the discovery of truth. (Orat. adv. Gent., ad cap.) The Catholic Christians will neither speak nor endure to hear any thing in religion that is a stranger to Scripture; it being an evil heart of immodesty to speak those things which are not written. (Exhort. ad Monachas)

ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN* (340?-396)


How can we use those things which we do not find in the Holy Scriptures? (Ambr. Offic., 1:23) I read that he is the first, I read that he is not the second; they who say he is the second, let them show it by reading. (Ambr. Offic., in Virginis Instit. 11)

ST. HILARY OF POITIERS (315-367)
O emperor! I admire your faith, which desires only according to those things that were written. ... You seek the faith, O emperor. Hear it then, not from new writings, but from the books of God. Remember that it is not a question of philosophy, but a doctrine of the gospel. (Ad Constant. Augus. 2:8:2)

ST. GREGORY OF NYSSA (330?-395)
Let a man be persuaded of the truth of that alone which has the seal of the written testimony. (De Anima et Resurrectione, 1)

  #57  
Old Jan 16, '05, 5:33 pm
LutheranStudent LutheranStudent is offline
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Default Church Fathers and "Sola Scriptura" Pt. II

ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (315?-386)
Not even the least of the divine and holy mysteries of the faith ought to be handed down without the divine Scriptures. Do not simply give faith to me speaking these things to you except you have the proof of what I say from the divine Scriptures. For the security and preservation of our faith are not supported by ingenuity of speech, but by the proofs of the divine Scriptures. (Cat. 4)

ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM OF ANTIOCH AND BYZANTIUM* (347-407)


[The Scripture], like a safe door, denies an entrance to heretics, guarding us in safety in all things we desire, and not permitting us to be deceived. ...Whoever uses not the Scriptures, but comes in otherwise, that is, cuts out for himself a different and unlawful way, the same is a thief. (Homily 59, in Joh. 2:8)

Formerly it might have been ascertained by various means which was the true church, but at present there is no other method left for those who are willing to discover the true church of Christ but by the Scriptures alone. And why? Because heresy has all outward observances in common with her. If a man, therefore, be desirous of knowing the true church, how will he be able to do it amid so great resemblance, but by the Scriptures alone? Wherefore our Lord, foreseeing that such a great confusion of things would take place in the latter days, ordered the Christians to have recourse to nothing but the Scriptures.

The man of God could not be perfect without the Scriptures. [Paul says to Timothy:] “You have the Scriptures: if you desire to learn anything, you may learn it from them.” But if he writes these things to Timothy, who was filled with the Holy Spirit, how much more must we think these things spoken to us. (Hom. 9 in 2 Tim. 1:9) It is absurd, while we will not trust other people in pecuniary affairs, but choose to reckon and calculate for ourselves, that in matters of far higher consequence we should implicitly follow the opinions of others, especially as we possess the most exact and perfect rule and standard by which to regulate our several inquiries: I mean the regulation of the divine laws. I, therefore, could wish that all of you would reject what this or that man says, and that you would investigate all these things in the Scriptures. (Hom. 13, 4:10 ad fin. in 2 Cor.)

THEOPHILUS OF ALEXANDRIA ( -412)
It is the part of a devilish spirit to think any thing to be divine that is not in the authority of the Holy Scriptures. (Ep. Pasch. 2)

ST. JEROME* (342?-420)


The church of Christ, possessing churches in all the world, is united by the unity of the Spirit, and has the cities of the law, the prophets, the gospels, and the apostles. She has not gone forth from her boundaries, that is, from the Holy Scriptures. (Comm. in Micha. 1:1)

Those things which they make and find, as it were, by apostolical tradition, without the authority and testimony of Scripture, the word of God smites. (ad Aggai 1) As we deny not those things that are written, so we refuse those things that are not written. That God was born of a virgin we believe, because we read it; that Mary did marry after she was delivered we believe not, because we do not read it. (Adv. Helvidium)

  #58  
Old Jan 16, '05, 5:34 pm
LutheranStudent LutheranStudent is offline
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Default Church Fathers and "Sola Scriptura" Pt. III

ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO* (354-430)


In those things which are clearly laid down in Scripture, all those things are found which pertain to faith and morals. (De Doct. Chr. 2:9)

Whatever you hear from them [the Scriptures], let that be well received by you. Whatever is without them refuse, lest you wander in a cloud. (De Pastore, 11)

All those things which in times past our ancestors have mentioned to be done toward mankind and have delivered unto us: all those things also which we see and deliver to our posterity, so far as they pertain to the seeking and maintaining true religion, the Holy Scripture has not passed over in silence. (Ep. 42)

Whatever our Saviour would have us read of his actions and sayings he commanded his apostles and disciples, as his hands, to write. (De Consensu Evang. 1:ult.) Let them [the Donatists] demonstrate their church if they can, not by the talk and rumor of the Africans; not by the councils of their own bishops; not by the books of their disputers; not by deceitful miracles, against which we are cautioned by the word of God, but in the prescript of the law, in the predictions of the prophets, in the verses of the Psalms, in the voice of the Shepherd himself, in the preaching and works of the evangelists; that is, in all canonical authorities of the sacred Scriptures. (De Unit. Eccl. 16)

ST. CYRIL OF ALEXANDRIA (380?-444)
That which the Holy Scriptures have not said, by what means should we receive and account it among those things that are true? (Glaphyrarum in Gen. 2)

THEODORET OF CYRRHUS (393?-458?)


By the Holy Scriptures alone am I persuaded. (Dial. 1, Atrept.)

I am not so bold as to affirm anything which the sacred Scripture passes in silence. (Dial. 2, Asynchyt.) We ought not to seek those things that are passed in silence, but rest in the things which are written. (in Gen. Q. 45)

ST. JOHN OF DAMASCUS (675?-749?)
We receive and acknowledge and reverence all things which are delivered in the law, the prophets, the apostles and evangelists, and we seek after nothing beyond these. (de Fid. Ortho. 1:1:1)

CONCLUSION: The doctrine of Sola Scriptura, far from being an invention of Martin Luther, is taken for granted by St. Thomas Aquinas, and is a point agreed upon by the writers of the patristic age.


In Christ,
Lutheran Student
  #59  
Old Jan 16, '05, 6:34 pm
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Default Re: Church Fathers

Quote:
Originally Posted by LutheranStudent
Dear Church Militant,
You are partially correct; I responded to a jab by taking a jab myself, and I apologize. Certainly many of the devout Catholics in this forum deserve a great deal of credit for researching thier faith. You see, admittedly came into this forum with a bias against Catholicism due largely to the fact that many of my neighbors are Catholics. They go to church once or twice a year and have probably never even heard of many of the church fathers. My relatives are Catholic, and after seeing in a (Lutheran) funeral bulletin recently that Lutherans to not accept the Apocrypha, they had to ask me whether Catholics believe in it or not. This led me to believe that most Catholics accept Catholic teaching on the sole basis that it has been taught for a long time. It is people like John Ennis who have convinced me otherwise. I sincerely apologize if I have offended any of my Christian Brethren out there.

~Lutheran Student


Quite honestly, I and my friends here cannot (and shouldn't have to) account for your relatives and others who have no more devotion to their faith than you describe. That is like me trying to hold you and all Lutheranism to account for those members who are lax or immoral, right? As you have seen so far, you will find that most of us on here are very serious about our faith and try real hard to live it as well as know it. We attempt to lead by example and by voice wherever the door is openned. A great many people seem to come in here in seeking to prosyletize us and show us the error of our ways, but as you've seen, most of the "regulars" here are knowlegeable about why we believe what we believe and can readily offer good scriptural and traditional reasons why the Catholic faith is the one church that Christ founded and that has maintained and defended the doctrines of the early church for over 2,000 years.

Like a K-mart radio, my friend, we don't play.
Pax vobiscum
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  #60  
Old Jan 16, '05, 7:19 pm
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Default Re: different Protestant...

if the original question way back there was "why are there so many different Protestant denominations, and what makes them different?" it seems many of the differences arose from political and ethnic differences in the various European countries where these sects arose. The history of medieval Christianity is largely a history of conflict between the papacy and the empire, with the popes asserting their authority over Church governance against kings and emperors. A hallmark of both Lutheranism and Calvinism is subjection of the Church to the civil authority, which led to differences in how the churches in various jurisdictions developed.

Another source of difference is in church governance, whether or not to have bishops, to have presbyters or elders, whether or not the congregation is the ultimate authority and decision making body. Another source of difference is in whether ministers are ordained (which implies some type of authority to train and confer ordination) or answer something they discern as a personal call from God to preach. In tracing the history of sects that broke away from the first reformed churches, it usually appears the conflict is about interpretation of a few bible verses, taken in isolation and interpreted without reference to Tradition, or to the rest of the bible. An example would be the Mennonites and Amish, and their interpretation of biblical injunctions on how to live, dress, use of technology etc.
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