frustrated with RCIA

[convert999]

Hi, I've posted here once or twice. I'm joining the Church this Easter (2 weeks!) but I'm getting frustrated about a few things. I have an extensive Protestant backround and essentially "researched" my way into Catholicism. For better or for worse, I'm a person who needs to research "all the angles" before I am comfortable accepting things. Right now, I'm struggling with Marian devotion. I have reached the point where I am comfortable with the Church's teachings on Mary and I accept them, but I haven't reached the level where I am comfortable praying a Rosary or going to Mary with prayer concerns. Going directly to Jesus has been my practice for so long that it is instinctive for me. Let me be clear -- i don't think having this relationship with Mary is wrong in any way; in fact, I am sure it will be beneficial for me at some point, but I'm just not there yet.

Unfortunately, most of the RCIA leaders have no patience with my approach to learning the faith, and any time I ask a question I am basically told that if I accept the authority of the Church, I shouldn't need to understand things. How can I defend my faith if I don't understand it? As an example, yesterday I asked about Mary's title of co-redemptrix and what exactly was meant by that term. I was told that RCIA candidates should be learning the basics of the faith and not worrying themselves about "abstract things." I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I understand the "basics" better than many "cradle Catholics." What is the purpose of the class if it is not to answer my questions? (I should add that I'm the only candidate in this class, so I'm not depriving others of their instruction.)

Also, yesterday I mentioned that I would need to confess having my "tubes tied" fifteen years ago. The Religious Ed director told me that she had her tubes tied two years ago and then just went and confessed it afterwards. She then added that she had never regretted it. All the other leaders laughed along with her, but it left me wondering --how can you confess something you don't regret doing? She told me that most Catholics don't think sterilization is sinful. But I know what the Church teaches, and so does she. Why isn't she representing the Church's teaching, especially in her capacity as a church employee?

I am going to stick this out -- after all, it's only 2 weeks. But I don't know what to do about this class. Should I tell the priest my opinion? I don't want to be uncharitable and get the Religious Ed Dir. in trouble. Or maybe he feels the same way? What are your opinions? Debbie

[kage_ar]

Second question first.

I'd suggest reading the Catechism on Confession (it begins at 1440 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#1440):


1450 "Penance requires . . . the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction."49
Contrition
1451 Among the penitent's acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50
1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51
1453 The contrition called "imperfect" (or "attrition") is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin's ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52 1454 The reception of this sacrament ought to be prepared for by an examination of conscience made in the light of the Word of God. The passages best suited to this can be found in the Ten Commandments, the moral catechesis of the Gospels and the apostolic Letters, such as the Sermon on the Mount and the apostolic teachings.53

*******

For Marian questions... accepting the Dogmas is required (you will make that profession of Faith and you want it to be honest).

Accepting the Dogmas does not mean that you have to have Marian devotion. One can be a good Catholic and never pray a rosary. I was Catholic for 3 years before I prayed a rosary (and now I make them ).

The books that helped me the most were Scott Hahn's "Hail Holy Queen" and Fulton Sheen's "The World's First Love".

Back to Confession, Hahn's "Lord Have Mercy" is a must-read for converts during RCIA IMHO.

[jmcrae]

Originally Posted by convert999

Hi, I've posted here once or twice. I'm joining the Church this Easter (2 weeks!) but I'm getting frustrated about a few things. I have an extensive Protestant backround and essentially "researched" my way into Catholicism. For better or for worse, I'm a person who needs to research "all the angles" before I am comfortable accepting things. Right now, I'm struggling with Marian devotion. I have reached the point where I am comfortable with the Church's teachings on Mary and I accept them, but I haven't reached the level where I am comfortable praying a Rosary or going to Mary with prayer concerns. Going directly to Jesus has been my practice for so long that it is instinctive for me. Let me be clear -- i don't think having this relationship with Mary is wrong in any way; in fact, I am sure it will be beneficial for me at some point, but I'm just not there yet.

Unfortunately, most of the RCIA leaders have no patience with my approach to learning the faith, and any time I ask a question I am basically told that if I accept the authority of the Church, I shouldn't need to understand things. How can I defend my faith if I don't understand it? As an example, yesterday I asked about Mary's title of co-redemptrix and what exactly was meant by that term. I was told that RCIA candidates should be learning the basics of the faith and not worrying themselves about "abstract things." I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I understand the "basics" better than many "cradle Catholics." What is the purpose of the class if it is not to answer my questions? (I should add that I'm the only candidate in this class, so I'm not depriving others of their instruction.)

If you are the only person in the class, it seems a little unreasonable not to answer your questions, if they know the answers. It's not as if there would be someone further behind on the journey who would be upset or confused by the answers.

At the same time, it is certainly true that the idea of "Mary, Mediatrix of all Graces" is an idea that is not even properly understood by the learned theologians of the Church yet (which is why it is not yet a defined doctrine of the Church - they are still working on it and studying it).

Also, yesterday I mentioned that I would need to confess having my "tubes tied" fifteen years ago.

Just a friendly tip: you might like to keep your Confession between the priest and yourself. Your teachers, nor anyone else, do not need to be privy to the details.

I am going to stick this out -- after all, it's only 2 weeks. But I don't know what to do about this class. Should I tell the priest my opinion? I don't want to be uncharitable and get the Religious Ed Dir. in trouble. Or maybe he feels the same way? What are your opinions? Debbie

I would just leave it, for now. Unless you are going to be asked to teach the class at some point, it is up to them, how they choose to run it.

If they ask you for feedback, be honest with them about the stuff that bothered you - and after the whole thing is over (are you going to be doing the Period of Mystagogia?) you can then mention to the priest your concerns about the teachers.

[Scar]

.............i guess i will never understand how anyone can take issue with the mother of God. It's just that. She's the mother of God. You see little need of devotion to the vessel that carried and nurtured God? Well that's ok I guess, give it a little time and don't think so hard that you miss the forest for the trees. Welcome to the church, your in good doubtful company.

[redrosetea]

Originally Posted by convert999

Hi, I've posted here once or twice. I'm joining the Church this Easter (2 weeks!) but I'm getting frustrated about a few things. I have an extensive Protestant backround and essentially "researched" my way into Catholicism. For better or for worse, I'm a person who needs to research "all the angles" before I am comfortable accepting things. Right now, I'm struggling with Marian devotion. I have reached the point where I am comfortable with the Church's teachings on Mary and I accept them, but I haven't reached the level where I am comfortable praying a Rosary or going to Mary with prayer concerns. Going directly to Jesus has been my practice for so long that it is instinctive for me. Let me be clear -- i don't think having this relationship with Mary is wrong in any way; in fact, I am sure it will be beneficial for me at some point, but I'm just not there yet.

Unfortunately, most of the RCIA leaders have no patience with my approach to learning the faith, and any time I ask a question I am basically told that if I accept the authority of the Church, I shouldn't need to understand things. How can I defend my faith if I don't understand it? As an example, yesterday I asked about Mary's title of co-redemptrix and what exactly was meant by that term. I was told that RCIA candidates should be learning the basics of the faith and not worrying themselves about "abstract things." I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I understand the "basics" better than many "cradle Catholics." What is the purpose of the class if it is not to answer my questions? (I should add that I'm the only candidate in this class, so I'm not depriving others of their instruction.)

Also, yesterday I mentioned that I would need to confess having my "tubes tied" fifteen years ago. The Religious Ed director told me that she had her tubes tied two years ago and then just went and confessed it afterwards. She then added that she had never regretted it. All the other leaders laughed along with her, but it left me wondering --how can you confess something you don't regret doing? She told me that most Catholics don't think sterilization is sinful. But I know what the Church teaches, and so does she. Why isn't she representing the Church's teaching, especially in her capacity as a church employee?

I am going to stick this out -- after all, it's only 2 weeks. But I don't know what to do about this class. Should I tell the priest my opinion? I don't want to be uncharitable and get the Religious Ed Dir. in trouble. Or maybe he feels the same way? What are your opinions? Debbie

Yes you should tell the priest and the Bishop

[Texas Roofer]

Originally Posted by convert999

Hi, I've posted here once or twice. I'm joining the Church this Easter (2 weeks!) but I'm getting frustrated about a few things. I have an extensive Protestant backround and essentially "researched" my way into Catholicism. For better or for worse, I'm a person who needs to research "all the angles" before I am comfortable accepting things. Right now, I'm struggling with Marian devotion. I have reached the point where I am comfortable with the Church's teachings on Mary and I accept them, but I haven't reached the level where I am comfortable praying a Rosary or going to Mary with prayer concerns. Going directly to Jesus has been my practice for so long that it is instinctive for me. Let me be clear -- i don't think having this relationship with Mary is wrong in any way; in fact, I am sure it will be beneficial for me at some point, but I'm just not there yet.

Unfortunately, most of the RCIA leaders have no patience with my approach to learning the faith, and any time I ask a question I am basically told that if I accept the authority of the Church, I shouldn't need to understand things. How can I defend my faith if I don't understand it? As an example, yesterday I asked about Mary's title of co-redemptrix and what exactly was meant by that term.........................

Maybe you could read as much or little as needed about
Our Lady of Guadalupe
Our Lady of Fatima
Our Lady of Lourdes

I was told that RCIA candidates should be learning the basics of the faith and not worrying themselves about "abstract things." I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I understand the "basics" better than many "cradle Catholics." What is the purpose of the class if it is not to answer my questions? (I should add that I'm the only candidate in this class, so I'm not depriving others of their instruction.)

Also, yesterday I mentioned that I would need to confess having my "tubes tied" fifteen years ago. The Religious Ed director told me that she had her tubes tied two years ago and then just went and confessed it afterwards. She then added that she had never regretted it. All the other leaders laughed along with her, but it left me wondering --how can you confess something you don't regret doing?

To regret you cannot follow the church's teaching on sterlization is different than confessing a regret for sterilization

She told me that most Catholics don't think sterilization is sinful. But I know what the Church teaches, and so does she. Why isn't she representing the Church's teaching, especially in her capacity as a church employee?

Typically she is an unpaid volenteer, often someone begged her to teach

I am going to stick this out -- after all, it's only 2 weeks. But I don't know what to do about this class. Should I tell the priest my opinion? I don't want to be uncharitable and get the Religious Ed Dir. in trouble. Or maybe he feels the same way? What are your opinions? Debbie

You should consider volunteering to help future classes

[IrishAm]

Like you, I'm a researcher. When I converted back in the late '60s/early '70s, my best friend's father -- an educated Catholic with a wicked sense of humor -- gave me a three volume set of books on the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas. When I walked in for my first "class" (they were private instructions with a priest in those days), I had a list of questions ranging from theology to philosophy to birth control and Mary and the saints. The young priest turned off his background music ("Jesus Christ Superstar," no less) with a look of horror!

He, too, gave some odd answers, especially about Mary and the saints -- "Don't worry about it; nobody deals with them anymore!" But, his intentions were good, he taught me "enough" and my own intellectual and spiritual predispositions have led me deeper and deeper into my faith.

And, like you, I also struggled with "Mary and the saints." What I found is that it really is okay to not worry about them. A devotion to Mary (and the saints . . . which is beginning to sound a bit like a 1960s doo-wop group in this posting . . . ) is a personal devotion, and you can be a very good Catholic and not have these devotions. What I have found, however, is that the deeper you go into our faith, the more likely you are to DEVELOP a devotion to Mary and the occasional saint. When someone loves you as much as they love us who seek God, it is hard to resist them!

Hang in there. And blessings on your journey.

[convert999]

Thank you, everyone, for your replies. As Easter Vigil approaches, I have become both more excited and more terrified about the prospect. My family and (ex) friends are so anti-Catholic that this feels more like a divorce than a conversion. Thank God my husband is returning to the Church at the same time, so I have his support. But we have been un-invited to the family Easter dinner ("since you have abandoned Christianity, the holiday cannot have any meaning for you"), relieved of baby-sitting our nephew (we are now "poor role models"), and had numerous "final visits" from ex-friends who will no longer return our phone calls since we would not renounce Catholicism. My sister-in-law actually crosses the street when passing a Catholic church so as not to "give the devil a foothold."

Sorry for the rant. I guess I'm feeling out of place among both Protestants and Catholics these days. Debbie

[Soutane]

Originally Posted by convert999

Thank you, everyone, for your replies. As Easter Vigil approaches, I have become both more excited and more terrified about the prospect. My family and (ex) friends are so anti-Catholic that this feels more like a divorce than a conversion. Thank God my husband is returning to the Church at the same time, so I have his support. But we have been un-invited to the family Easter dinner ("since you have abandoned Christianity, the holiday cannot have any meaning for you"), relieved of baby-sitting our nephew (we are now "poor role models"), and had numerous "final visits" from ex-friends who will no longer return our phone calls since we would not renounce Catholicism. My sister-in-law actually crosses the street when passing a Catholic church so as not to "give the devil a foothold."

Sorry for the rant. I guess I'm feeling out of place among both Protestants and Catholics these days. Debbie

Goodness gracious.How sad

[kage_ar]

Prayers! May you find the good solid Catholics in your town. Is there another Parish? If not, find Adoration and the Pro Life group. Getting involved will introduce you to your great Catholic family.

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Can I add one comment about whether you should go to the priest with your concerns.

First I would go to the person in charge of RCIA and tell her that she has a responsibility to teach with the mind and heart of the Church. Depending on her response, then I would go to the priest.

I lead our RCIA program and do my best to teach what's in the Catechism (and rein in other team members when they start going off track). So if you thought I was off-base, then I'd appreciate hearing it from you first rather than the pastor. But if you came to me and my response was that I was going to keep doing what I was doing, then I think it would be good for you to go to the pastor. If he doesn't know what's going on this is his chance to learn and make corrections.

[mystagogia]

Hey, Debbie!

Like you I'm a convert from Protestantism going through RCIA right now and looking forward to joining the Church in full communion very soon!

Your situation seems very strange in that you are the only candidate they have yet you seem to be teamed up with several RCIA leaders. One would hope they would see the obvious need to avoid "tag teaming" you, so to speak, should you ask an inconvenient question. And I certainly would have hoped that they'd have had awareness and sensitivity to the special problem of Mary faced by anyone coming to the Catholic Church from a Protestant background!

I had the same problem with regard to Mary, and I bet you and I are not alone in having been taught to think of intercession as anything but a kind of idolatry. Yes, we can make the intellectual leap and understand the Catholic teaching on this point, and even come to accept it fully, but yet a sense of difficulty arises when it comes time to pray a Hail Mary anway.

In my case I overcame it by attempting to pray the rosary every day. At first this was difficult because the only prayer in it I knew by heart was the Our Father. I could not peel off the Apostles' Creed, the Hail Mary, the Fatima Prayer, the Glory Be, etc. in a rote fashion without thinking about the words. Two things happened in that I wound up saying the rosary very slowly and having to think quite hard about the words. Any chance of "meditating" about the mysteries while I prayed was absolutely futile; the attempt would just mean I'd get lost in the prayer - even the Our Father, the one I did have nailed! It still takes me about an hour to pray the rosary. But what emerged was a profound effect, and I believe God opened my heart to Blessed Virgin by this means.

So, you might want to try it!

As to the other stuff about tubes being tied and so forth, I don't understand it. You seem right and I don't see understand the Religious Ed director's position at all. What can I say but that they, just like ourselves, are not perfect people, but all too human?

[mystagogia]

Originally Posted by convert999

Thank you, everyone, for your replies. As Easter Vigil approaches, I have become both more excited and more terrified about the prospect. My family and (ex) friends are so anti-Catholic that this feels more like a divorce than a conversion. Thank God my husband is returning to the Church at the same time, so I have his support. But we have been un-invited to the family Easter dinner ("since you have abandoned Christianity, the holiday cannot have any meaning for you"), relieved of baby-sitting our nephew (we are now "poor role models"), and had numerous "final visits" from ex-friends who will no longer return our phone calls since we would not renounce Catholicism. My sister-in-law actually crosses the street when passing a Catholic church so as not to "give the devil a foothold."

Sorry for the rant. I guess I'm feeling out of place among both Protestants and Catholics these days. Debbie

Wow, Debbie, this must be hard to bear! Be comforted that every blow you take in His name was not only foreseen but increases you!

I am very thankful that my Protestant friends and family have taken my decision to convert well. It's actually been an opportunity to talk to them about the reasons why I made this decision, and do some "witnessing"!

My hope is that over time, as passions become less raw, a sense acceptance or at least an accommodation of views will emerge.

[convert999]

It is a little odd; there are 5 "leaders", my sponsor, and me in the class. Sometimes it feels more like an inquisition than a class! Often they will start "discussing" my questions among themselves and 15 minutes will pass before we get back to the subject at hand. They are all wonderful people, but none of them are converts and they don't seem to understand how indoctrinated Evangelicals are in anti-Catholicism. They are frequently shocked by the stories I tell, like being chastised for playing "What Child Is This" in church (I am a church musician) because it contains the line "the Babe, the Son of Mary." So it's safe to say that they don't really understand the issues Evangelicals deal with when converting. They've never had to face down 3 Evangelical pastors, 2 of them ex-Catholics, with Bibles in hand, challenging them to defend their belief in Covenant theology! If they had, they would know why I always want to know things in DETAIL!

[NHInsider]

Originally Posted by convert999

Thank you, everyone, for your replies. As Easter Vigil approaches, I have become both more excited and more terrified about the prospect. My family and (ex) friends are so anti-Catholic that this feels more like a divorce than a conversion. Thank God my husband is returning to the Church at the same time, so I have his support. But we have been un-invited to the family Easter dinner ("since you have abandoned Christianity, the holiday cannot have any meaning for you"), relieved of baby-sitting our nephew (we are now "poor role models"), and had numerous "final visits" from ex-friends who will no longer return our phone calls since we would not renounce Catholicism. My sister-in-law actually crosses the street when passing a Catholic church so as not to "give the devil a foothold."

Sorry for the rant. I guess I'm feeling out of place among both Protestants and Catholics these days. Debbie

Wow, Debbie, that is pretty extreme, even for evangelicals. We got a lot of nasty remarks and people avoiding us, but we were never explicitly uninvited to dinner. Maybe the fact that we raise the turkeys . . .

We did get cut off from one whole branch of my husband's family after *they* "converted" from luke-warm Congregationalists to Fundamentalist Baptists - we were already Catholic but all-of-a-sudden we were pariahs. But after a long time (20+ years) both sides of the family have gradually come to some level of realization that we are still Christians. It is tough, though when you go through those wonderful milestone events and the family isn't there - baptisms, etc. (We had trouble coming up with godparents.)

The best thing I can recommend is that you continue to pray for these folks and be social toward them, even if they cut you dead. This is really hard (you get to practice "offering it up") but if you can do it then it makes it clear that the connection is still open on your end. And even though they don't consider us Christians, we still recognize their Christianity.

As to the Catholics you encounter, obviously you will find them all along the faith spectrum. It does seem very odd that your RCIA program has so many instructors and so few candidates, and that the instructors are so unfamiliar with anti-catholic argument. Are they new at this? Does the parish otherwise seem to be faith-filled? If not you may be happier finding another parish after you're received. Particularly as you are being ostracized by your friends and family for your decision, you want to be in a parish where you'll be able to readily establish new connections.

Praying for you this week!