Apparitions - Deceptions of Satan? (Revisited)

[vz71]

Originally Posted by luda_111

Galatians 3:29: And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And you believe this makes you Jewish?

[vz71]

Originally Posted by luda_111

But Peters belief is one of the little rocks that make up the church - That Jesus is the Messiah, the son of the living God.

And we jump into another unbiblical teaching here.

So tell us, where exactly within the bible are these beliefs said to be 'little rocks'?

Such irony that the Catholic church that you are characterizaing as unbiblical holds closer to the bible then your own arguments against her.

[NotWorthy]

Originally Posted by luda_111

Those statues in Kings and the cherubim carvings for the ark iin Exodus were used for decoration. Why do catholics have a pagan "Crowning of the Statue" (coronation of Mary) ceremony? Why do some bow down before statues/kiss the feet of statues as if they are human? Why do they excessively adore images? Why is there an obelisk in St. Peter's square Vatican City?

So you admit that its all right to make statues of heavenly beings. We agree.

Its just the worshiping that is wrong. Again, we agree.

[NotWorthy]

Originally Posted by luda_111

Christ is the ultimate rock, the foundation of the church. But Peters belief is one of the little rocks that make up the church - That Jesus is the Messiah, the son of the living God.

So it's, "Blessed are you Simon BarJonah, for no mere mortal has told you this, but My heavenly Father. And I tell you, Your Faith is Rock and upon this Rock I will build My Church"?

What translation are you using?!?!?

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by luda_111

Maybe this means that Jesus is letting Peter know that he can enter the Kingdom of Heaven (he has given him the keys and he is saved) and his rewards in heaven will be according to his works on earth....just a thought....could be wrong....

Yes you certainly could be. Such "non-authority" interpretations did not occur in the first 1500 years of the Church but rather ar a relatively "new" invention.
If the Church is not visible and authoritavie, how do you interpret Matthew 18.
How does an ethereal "group of believers" constitute a church one can Tell it To?
If you want to see the more "democratic" version of "church" in action, just look at the proliferation of doctrines in the Protestant communites.

Christ is the ultimate rock, the foundation of the church. But Peters belief is one of the little rocks that make up the church - That Jesus is the Messiah, the son of the living God.

Of Course Christ is the ultimate Rock upon which we build, but what does Paul call the Pillar and foundation of Truth?

Peace
James

[luda_111]

Originally Posted by vz71

And we jump into another unbiblical teaching here.

So tell us, where exactly within the bible are these beliefs said to be 'little rocks'?

Such irony that the Catholic church that you are characterizaing as unbiblical holds closer to the bible then your own arguments against her.

The Greek word for Peter is petros, which means "a pebble" or a small stone. On the other hand, the Greek word that Jesus used for rock is petra, meaning "a massive rock" or bedrock. Now we can see that there is an obvious difference! Peter was correct when he stated that Jesus was "the Christ" and it was this profession of truth that the church would be founded upon: Jesus Christ "the chief cornerstone" (Matthew 21:42). Jesus was talking about building His church upon the solid bedrock, not a small pebble.

Paul is clear in 1 Corinthians 3:11 "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." We can't look to a mere human being as the foundation of the Christian church! "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man." (Psalm 118:8). Like David said, "The Lord is my rock" (Psalm 18:2) "And who is a rock, except our God?" (Psalm 18:31).

Peter was not "rock solid" at this point in time. If we read on in Matthew 16, just a few verses after Jesus spoke of the rock, we find Christ rebuking Peter for trying to hinder His ministry: "But He turned and said to Peter, Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men." (Matthew 16:23) Later, it was Peter who denied three times that he even knew Jesus (Matthew 26:69-75). So he obviously had some growing to do in his relationship with the Lord, and Jesus knew that (Luke 22:31-32).

Now it is true that every believer of Jesus Christ is a stone in the great building of God, His church. Peter himself tells us that Jesus is the "cornerstone", and we are also stones resting on the foundation of Christ: "Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame." (1 Peter 1:4-6)

Paul adds to this illustration: "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22)

Peter was not the "rock" that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 16, but he was one of the many that would be among the body of believers throughout time. We are all "rocks" in God's church, but Jesus is the Rock spoken of in Isaiah 32:1-2 (NLT) "Look, a righteous king is coming! And honest princes will rule under him. 2 He will shelter Israel from the storm and the wind. He will refresh her as a river in the desert and as the cool shadow of a large rock in a hot and weary land." (See also Deuteronomy 32:18, Psalm 94:22, 1 Corinthians 10:4)

[qui est ce]

Originally Posted by luda_111

Galatians 3:29: And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You quote a lot of NT. Jews are still awaiting the Messiah. Really. Rosalind Moss told me that AFTER she converted to Christianity from Judaism. She now lives in St Louis where she started a new order of nuns called "Daughters of Mary, Mother of Israel's Hope.

Salvation is from the Jews, but we no longer practice Judaism. We believers in Jesus, the Messiah, call ourselves CHRISTIANS. Jesus is the FULFILLMENT of Judaism.

[qui est ce]

Originally Posted by luda_111

The Greek word for Peter is petros, which means "a pebble" or a small stone. On the other hand, the Greek word that Jesus used for rock is petra, meaning "a massive rock" or bedrock. Now we can see that there is an obvious difference! Peter was correct when he stated that Jesus was "the Christ" and it was this profession of truth that the church would be founded upon: Jesus Christ "the chief cornerstone" (Matthew 21:42). Jesus was talking about building His church upon the solid bedrock, not a small pebble.

Paul is clear in 1 Corinthians 3:11 "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." We can't look to a mere human being as the foundation of the Christian church! "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man." (Psalm 118:8). Like David said, "The Lord is my rock" (Psalm 18:2) "And who is a rock, except our God?" (Psalm 18:31).

Peter was not "rock solid" at this point in time. If we read on in Matthew 16, just a few verses after Jesus spoke of the rock, we find Christ rebuking Peter for trying to hinder His ministry: "But He turned and said to Peter, Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men." (Matthew 16:23) Later, it was Peter who denied three times that he even knew Jesus (Matthew 26:69-75). So he obviously had some growing to do in his relationship with the Lord, and Jesus knew that (Luke 22:31-32).

Now it is true that every believer of Jesus Christ is a stone in the great building of God, His church. Peter himself tells us that Jesus is the "cornerstone", and we are also stones resting on the foundation of Christ: "Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame." (1 Peter 1:4-6)

Paul adds to this illustration: "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22)

Peter was not the "rock" that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 16, but he was one of the many that would be among the body of believers throughout time. We are all "rocks" in God's church, but Jesus is the Rock spoken of in Isaiah 32:1-2 (NLT) "Look, a righteous king is coming! And honest princes will rule under him. 2 He will shelter Israel from the storm and the wind. He will refresh her as a river in the desert and as the cool shadow of a large rock in a hot and weary land." (See also Deuteronomy 32:18, Psalm 94:22, 1 Corinthians 10:4)

WHEEW, what a lot of mental gynastics to explain such a simple verse:

Matthew 16:18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Please continue reading the verse which follows above verse :

Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

As a Jew, you should recognize Jesus was quoting Isaiah 22:21-22:

I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
22
I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.

Jesus was handing Peter authority of his Church on Earth. YES

[qui est ce]

[quote=luda_111;5026347]The Greek word for Peter is petros, which means "a pebble" or a small stone. On the other hand, the Greek word that Jesus used for rock is petra, meaning "a massive rock" or bedrock. [quote]

Problem is Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Greek.

the Aramaic word kepa - meaning rock and transliterated into Greek as Kephas is the name by which Peter is called in the Pauline letters (1 Cor 1:12; 3:22; 9:5; 15:4; Gal 1:18; 2:9, 11, 14) except in Gal 2:7-8 ("Peter"). It is translated as Petros ("Peter") in John 1:42. The presumed original Aramaic of Jesus' statement would have been, in English, "You are the Rock (Kepa) and upon this rock (kepa) I will build my church." The Greek text probably means the same, for the difference in gender between the masculine noun petros, the disciple's new name, and the feminine noun petra (rock) may be due simply to the unsuitability of using a feminine noun as the proper name of a male. Although the two words were generally used with slightly different nuances, they were also used interchangeably with the same meaning, "rock."

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by vz71

And we jump into another unbiblical teaching here.

So tell us, where exactly within the bible are these beliefs said to be 'little rocks'?

Such irony that the Catholic church that you are characterizaing as unbiblical holds closer to the bible then your own arguments against her.

Intended to comment on the "Rock" but when I clicked on the quote I discovered that Luda had evidently edited the post to remove that reference. Thank you Luda for recognizing your error.

Peace
James

[vz71]

Originally Posted by luda_111

The Greek word for Peter is petros, which means "a pebble" or a small stone. On the other hand, the Greek word that Jesus used for rock is petra, meaning "a massive rock" or bedrock.

Originally Posted by qui est ce

Problem is Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Greek.

the Aramaic word kepa - meaning rock and transliterated into Greek as Kephas is the name by which Peter is called in the Pauline letters (1 Cor 1:12; 3:22; 9:5; 15:4; Gal 1:18; 2:9, 11, 14) except in Gal 2:7-8 ("Peter"). It is translated as Petros ("Peter") in John 1:42. The presumed original Aramaic of Jesus' statement would have been, in English, "You are the Rock (Kepa) and upon this rock (kepa) I will build my church." The Greek text probably means the same, for the difference in gender between the masculine noun petros, the disciple's new name, and the feminine noun petra (rock) may be due simply to the unsuitability of using a feminine noun as the proper name of a male. Although the two words were generally used with slightly different nuances, they were also used interchangeably with the same meaning, "rock."

Thanks.

[vz71]

Originally Posted by qui est ce

As a Jew, you should recognize Jesus was quoting Isaiah 22:21-22:

I am still not convinced that the religion listed is not a deception.

[qui est ce]

Originally Posted by vz71

I am still not convinced that the religion listed is not a deception.

He/She sounds like a Messianic Jew. Rosalind Moss joined this group before she became a Catholic. They are really Fundamental Evangelicals. Luda's interpretation of NT is same as Fund Ev. Probably doesn't believe in the Real Presence either. A Jew would understand the significance of eating the lamb. The Fourth cup on the Cross, when Jesus said "It is finished." meaning the Passover is finished, because HE is the New Covenant sealed with the blood of the Lamb.

[qui est ce]

Originally Posted by vz71

Thanks.

You're welcome. Bible study is really cool, especially when taught by a former Evangelical Pastor. So on fire for Jesus and so knowledgable!

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by qui est ce

You're welcome. Bible study is really cool, especially when taught by a former Evangelical Pastor. So on fire for Jesus and so knowledgable!

I know what you mean - I sometimes watch "REasons to Believe with Scott Hahn and Boy does He get fired up sometimes.
So does Steve Ray.

It's kind of contagious too.

Peace
James