Escape From Hell

phoage · #1 May 3, '09, 4:00 am

This is the title of the latest book by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, It is the sequel to their 1976 best seller, Inferno which was a prose version of Dante's poem from a different point of view and with updated sins. Those who have not read it, Inferno would be a worthwhile read before reading Escape From Hell.

Escape picks up where Inferno leaves off but now. the effects of Vatican II are in evidence, The authors explain in the afterward that Inferno was written less than a decade after Vatican II and most people were unsure of the effects it would have.

There are many historical personalities in the book(s), some of recent (2007) tenure on the mortal coil. Any resemblance to real people is purely on purpose.

I am unsure of Mr Niven, however Dr Pournelle is Catholic and the authors claim that nothing in the book violates current doctrine. The book(s) can be read as a straight adventure novel like all good fiction but there is a second level of deeper significance.

I have just finished it and so have not analyzed it in any depth. I would be interested in hearing other opinions of its merits (or lack of). Both of these authors, separately and together, are on my must buy list for books.

Patrick

**GEddie** · #2 May 14, '09, 8:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoage

This is the title of the latest book by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, It is the sequel to their 1976 best seller, Inferno which was a prose version of Dante's poem from a different point of view and with updated sins. Those who have not read it, Inferno would be a worthwhile read before reading Escape From Hell.

Escape picks up where Inferno leaves off but now. the effects of Vatican II are in evidence, The authors explain in the afterward that Inferno was written less than a decade after Vatican II and most people were unsure of the effects it would have.

There are many historical personalities in the book(s), some of recent (2007) tenure on the mortal coil. Any resemblance to real people is purely on purpose.

I am unsure of Mr Niven, however Dr Pournelle is Catholic and the authors claim that nothing in the book violates current doctrine. The book(s) can be read as a straight adventure novel like all good fiction but there is a second level of deeper significance.

I have just finished it and so have not analyzed it in any depth. I would be interested in hearing other opinions of its merits (or lack of). Both of these authors, separately and together, are on my must buy list for books.

Patrick

Hello Patrick,

The only egregious departure from Catholic teaching in EFH is the titular one; namely that one can escape from Hell. There is some ambiguity of course on the issue of the souls that "blow themselves up" (before the beginning and at the end of EFH); do they simply stop being?

Other than that, it is a GREAT read and I especially liked the way that sins are linked with their punishments, both in Inferno and in EFH; also that people can choose to stay in Hell even when they know there is a way out.

Niven's hell is much more akin to Purgatory as we understand it. While I doubt such a work will be forthcoming, it would be amazing to see his take on the Dantean Purgatory.

ICXC NIKA,

GEddie

Shin · #3 May 14, '09, 9:40 pm

Well, I wouldn't call that the only departure, from what little I recall he had to do quite a few to make it a story -- it's for the most part the necessary changes to make that sort of 'journey to the center of the earth' adventure type novel, save of course, it's 'Hell' instead.

The souls in Hell are not sympathetic, they are utterly evil and hate everyone and everything, and you too. So, to be truly realistic you can't write a Hell story with a protagonist who in there is truly condemned there forever -- Purgatorial perhaps, but not to Hell forever. And even then.. you wouldn't really enjoy a more realistic book on Hell, it would be a horror novel, more than an adventure.

Some of the audio sermons on 'Sensus Traditionis' below on Hell might be something people who enjoyed this book would appreciate. I firmly suggest them. They are good listening. They teach something without which we cannot attain Heaven -- Hatred of sin, for the sake of the love of God and our souls.

The souls in hell will be tormented in their will, by being denied everything which they desire, and by having every punishment inflicted upon them which they do not desire. They will never have anything which they wish for, but everything which they abhor. They will long to rid themselves of their torments and to find peace; but there will be no peace for them; they will be forced to dwell in the midst of their torments forever. Their perverse will, by hating God when they know him to be the supreme good, and worthy of infinite love, will become their greatest torment.

In this world fire burns only outwardly, and does not penetrate our interior; but in hell the fire enters into the inmost recesses of its victims. You shall make them as an oven of fire. Every one will become as a furnace of fire, so that the heart will burn within the chest, the bowels within the belly, the brains within the skull, and even the marrow within the bones. Sinners, what are your feelings with regard to this fire? You, who cannot now bear a spark accidentally fallen from a candle, nor a house too hot, nor a ray of the sun upon your head, how will you endure to be permanently immersed in an ocean of fire, where you will be forever dying, and yet never, never die?

It is the opinion of St. Basil, St. Jerome, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and others, that as God has determined for each one the number of talents, the goods of fortune, and the number of days to be bestowed upon him, so he has also determined for each one the number of sins to be pardoned him, which being completed, God will pour out his chastisements upon him and pardon him no more. Each one, says St. Augustine, is patiently borne with by Almighty God for a certain time; but when this is over, there is then no longer any more pardon for him.

You have forsaken Me, says the Lord, You have gone backward. God complains and says, Ungrateful soul, you have forsaken me! I should never have forsaken you had you not first turned your back upon Me: you have gone backward - O God, with what consternation stands to be judged before Your divine tribunal!

O God! how great will be the horror of a guilty soul when presented before Jesus Christ, from whom nothing will be hidden, and who will judge it with the utmost severity! I am the Judge and the Witness will he then say: "I am Your Judge, and I am witness of all the offences You have committed against me."

And yet, O God! when shall I detach myself from the world and give myself entirely to You? Behold me, O Jesus! I will no longer resist. You have obliged me to love You. I desire to be wholly Yours: do receive me, and disdain not the love of a sinner who has until now so much despised You. I love You, my God,my love, and my all; have pity on me, O Mary! You are my hope.

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

Heaven is not made for the slothful.

St. Philip Neri

phoage · #4 May 16, '09, 5:52 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GEddie

The only egregious departure from Catholic teaching in EFH is the titular one; namely that one can escape from Hell. GEddie

One must remember that the <BOLD>story</BOLD> is based on the Divine Comedy wherein Dante was taken on a trip though Hell ( and Purgatory and Heaven). Dante was able to enter Hell and leave it again and Carpenter uses Dante's route.

DISCLAIMER: I am neither a biblical scholar nor an expert in Canon Law.

Having said that, this was published shortly after Dante's death in 1321 and not only became a literary classic, but influenced Christian views of Hell. I AM somewhat of a history buff and have not heard of any furor that was raised by the Church over the blatant violation of dogma in this piece. Indeed I have seen some praise of it by clerics and theologians. (As this period and Church history in general are not my historical forte, I would have to do some research as to where I saw that.)

So in all that, I do not see it as incompatible that God, in His infinite mercy has created a "Lesson of Last Resort" to instruct those who have not learned from the relatively mild school of mortal existence on earth. Notice also that in the story, the souls confined to Hell still have free will.

In the final analysis, this is after all just a story.

As to the souls that "blow themselves up", Hell is obviously (from the story) a large place. Carpenter went back to his starting place after being blown up, Maybe the suicide bomber did also?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shin

The souls in Hell are not sympathetic, they are utterly evil and hate everyone and everything, and you too.
[/indent]

From what I understand, the hell in Hell is the absence of God's grace and the pain of Hell is caused by that. (CCC1730-1742) This is indeed expressed in the story.

Patrick

**GEddie** · #5 May 16, '09, 7:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoage

One must remember that the <BOLD>story</BOLD> is based on the Divine Comedy wherein Dante was taken on a trip though Hell ( and Purgatory and Heaven). Dante was able to enter Hell and leave it again and Carpenter uses Dante's route.

DISCLAIMER: I am neither a biblical scholar nor an expert in Canon Law.

Having said that, this was published shortly after Dante's death in 1321 and not only became a literary classic, but influenced Christian views of Hell. I AM somewhat of a history buff and have not heard of any furor that was raised by the Church over the blatant violation of dogma in this piece. Indeed I have seen some praise of it by clerics and theologians. (As this period and Church history in general are not my historical forte, I would have to do some research as to where I saw that.)

So in all that, I do not see it as incompatible that God, in His infinite mercy has created a "Lesson of Last Resort" to instruct those who have not learned from the relatively mild school of mortal existence on earth. Notice also that in the story, the souls confined to Hell still have free will.

In the final analysis, this is after all just a story.

As to the souls that "blow themselves up", Hell is obviously (from the story) a large place. Carpenter went back to his starting place after being blown up, Maybe the suicide bomber did also?

From what I understand, the hell in Hell is the absence of God's grace and the pain of Hell is caused by that. (CCC1730-1742) This is indeed expressed in the story.

Patrick

Allen Carpenter/Carpentier does indeed take on the role of Dante, however, with the serious distinction that the narrator Dante is ALIVE while making his journey; and as such has not been judged to Hell. His status is comparable to that of a human mind/soul/spiritual-body undergoing a "near death experience." Carpenter, however, is dead, and so belongs there. His freedom to escape Hell would therefore be a theological departure: theologically, there are no "second chances."

I am aware this is just a story; and a dashed good one!

Shin: thank you for your quotations re: Hell. They don't preach em like they used to.

And, theologically, there are graces in Niven's Hell. The fellowship of others; the ability to heal from wounds; the ability to move around (Jesus suggests that those in Hell would have "hands and feet bound"---Mt 22:13) and the human form recovered by Sylvia; and especially the ability to repent--- all of those are gifts of God.

GEddie

vacanebrake · #6 Feb 19, '10, 6:51 pm

This thread has been dead as _ _ _ _, let us say, door nail, for awhile. As a brand new member to CA Book Club and since I am reading Dante's Divine Comedy thought I would jump in here.

Actually, I was totally surprised on how much I have like the book so far. I have finished "Hell" and just beginning "Purgatory", I do hope to make it to "Heaven".

Wondering, since I have not researched yet, what the history of this book is within the Church/ or the Church's view of the book. Anyone know?

I do believe that St. Francis of Assisi like Dante as an author, I recall reading some where.

Thank you all for letting me in.

Peace & all good

phoage · #7 Feb 19, '10, 8:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by vacanebrake

Wondering, since I have not researched yet, what the history of this book is within the Church/ or the Church's view of the book. Anyone know?

vacanebrake

Welcome to the book club. I have not read the Divine Comedy although it is on my to do list and I own a copy of it. As I understand from reading about the history of the period, Aside from the entertainment value, it was written as a political and social commentary, much as Niven and Pournelle's book were. It was not banned, and Dante was not put to the question so it must have past muster with the official Church, however I am sure that there were several prominant personalities who would have wished otherwise. He did not cut people much slack and he called them as he saw them.Ofcourse, the fact that all the people he populated his story with were dead amy have had something to do with that.

Patrick Hoage

Shin · #8 Feb 19, '10, 9:10 pm

I remember enjoying Dante's works many years ago.. but we are reading it in translation normally.. now, none of the translations I've read appeal to me enough for me to want to pick it up at the moment.

But which are you reading?

vacanebrake · #9 Feb 19, '10, 10:52 pm

Patrick - Your right he didn't pull any punches in the first canto. I was little rusty on 11th and 12th century personages, many I new my name, but was unaware of their politics & lives. Little effort though made the book that much more interesting.

Shin, asked about the translation the copy I have was translated by Allen Mandelbaum, published by Alfred Knopf series: "Everyman's Library" the drawings are by Sandro Botticelli (c. 1445 - 1510). The drawings are much simpler than some drawings/etches I've seen in other works.

The Introduction or the book and the Chronology provided give a wealth of info., but more secular history, than Church History. I thought there would be some source for Church thoughts on the books, but I have yet to come across them.

Thanks for the responses.

Peace & all good