World population explosion-human virus - Page 6

tuviskazinai · #76 May 13, '09, 4:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmharter

Go to Patrick Madrid's blog and see the video he has there on Moslem Demographics, see what our children's future will be after we've argued ourselves into oblivion.

http://patrickmadrid.blogspot.com/20...-abortion.html

Mary

Thanks for posting this link, Mary!

I agree that the depopulation of Europe is scary. And the fact that Islam is a rapidly growing world religion is both fascinating and important. But I have to take issue with a few things in the video...first of all, I find the menacing tone when it starts talking about "the Muslim invasion" to be downright racist. They might belong to a different religion from our own, but they deserve our respect and our love, as all people do. In fact, we can learn from Pope Benedict who just this week stopped to pray at not one but two mosques in the Holy Land and praised the Muslim contribution to the world at one of their new universities in Jordan. The Pope talks all the time about the importance of allying ourselves with Islam in proclaiming certain fundamental truths (the centrality of God, the sanctity of life) that Europe has drifted away from. So I think we're making a mistake if we automatically assume that Muslims are our enemies.

But I also take issue with the video's facts. "Islam" is extremely complicated. When the video gives statistics for the number of Muslims in Europe, it implies that they are all vicious jihadists out for infidel blood. In fact, the situation is far more complex. Islam is as much a cultural identity as it is a religious identity. Something like 10% of the Muslims in France attend religious services...only 10%!! That's even less than Catholic Mass attendance. By contrast, 45% celebrate Ramadan. Why? Because the Ramadan fast expresses a cultural dimension more so than a religious message, and in fact the religious message of Islam is not necessarily that appealing to the young generation who really just wants to integrate into French society. An astonishing 40% of Moroccan males marry French females...can you imagine if 40% of African-American males were marrying white American females? The degree to which certain Muslim populations are integrating peacefully into the (very secular!) French society is simply amazing.

This is not to say that there are not very religious Muslims, though they actually get along quite well with the Catholics here. The French state, which is officially secular, has outlawed the wearing of the hijab (Islamic veil) for girls in public schools. The only place where these girls can wear the veil is in Catholic parochial schools. From what I have seen (I live in France), this shared respect of each other's religion has been very good for Catholic-Muslim relations and probably for European society as a whole: it demonstrates that religions which are usually branded "intolerant" can in fact be more "tolerant" than the secular state. Some Muslim girls even feel more protected in these Catholic schools than in their own homes. For many Muslim men (the supposedly intolerant fanatical fathers) who don't want to be branded as radical by French employers and neighbors force their daughters not to wear the veil. I have also heard from numerous girls whose boyfriends have threatened to break up with them if they wear the veil, because it's a sign of modesty and piousness -- hence, "uncool."

All this is just to say that "Muslim identity" is extremely varied and complex. This is not to say that there are not many radical Muslims moving to France, for instance (these are the ones coming mainly from sub-Saharan Africa rather than from North Africa). But to say that we will be living in a "Muslim world" in a few decades is overstating the case by far. I am sure that within that time many new cultural patterns will emerge which this fear-mongering video has made no effort to predict.

Peace,
+AMDG+

Newbie2 · #77 May 13, '09, 5:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanteAlighieri

You're going to allow a Wikipedia article about population growth to make you think of humanity as a virus ravaging the virgin earth? Come on, now!

When someone makes an assertion like that, ask for their sources. I can just as easily make an unsubstantiated argument that there's more than enough food and resources to go around.

Peace,
Dante

Why go to Wikipedia when you can go to the Matrix?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn6WZh17BF4

"You move to an area and you mul-ti-ply..."

brandymmiller · #78 May 13, '09, 3:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

And God also doesnt say keep multiplying no matter what. ...

Actually, yes He does. He intends that mankind should continue to procreate and "fill the world". We are far from having done so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

Really though being that God lets plenty of horrible things go on in the world all the time even as I type this..I am sure there are people being raped killed tortured and what not. Somehow I find it surprising that people still believe God will bail us all out. ...

Just because man abuses the free will which God has endowed him with does not mean that God isn't there to help those who suffer if they will turn to him. I ought to know. I've suffered such abuse at the hands of man and was able to not only heal through God but to heal others I have met along the way as a result. God took what was intended for evil and has used it to produce good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

He might provide comfort of a sort but beyond that...

He doesn't just provide comfort. He provides. However, He expects our obedience and our trust. Allowing our fear of what "might" happen in a future that doesn't even exist yet to be an excuse to abandon God's laws is about as sensible as killing your child because you heard on the news that someone else's child killed them and you don't want the same thing to happen to you.

Calliso · #79 May 13, '09, 4:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandymmiller

Actually, yes He does. He intends that mankind should continue to procreate and "fill the world". We are far from having done so.

.

We have populated every continent but Antartica and well thats understandable. Reasonably we can;t actually think that God meant procreate until we have no room left to stand. Remember those commandments were given when supposely there was only a few people left! We have around 7 billion now I donlt think God is going to be too mad if some of us married or not chose to not procreate. I still stand by my statement we have fulfilled the command.

brandymmiller · #80 May 13, '09, 4:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuviskazinai

it seems to me that 90% of the scientists out there believe in it and 10% don't,

Most scientists do indeed agree that there is global warming going on right now, just as most agreed in the 1970's that there was global cooling. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1310991/posts)

What is not agreed upon by any clear majority is either the cause OR the solution.

Darwinian logic should be the very best reason we have not to subscribe to the philosophy of population reduction:

The society/species/entity that refuses to reproduce WILL BE REPLACED by one that does not.

Calliso · #81 May 13, '09, 4:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandymmiller

Most scientists do indeed agree that there is global warming going on right now, just as most agreed in the 1970's that there was global cooling. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1310991/posts)

What is not agreed upon by any clear majority is either the cause OR the solution.

Darwinian logic should be the very best reason we have not to subscribe to the philosophy of population reduction:

The society/species/entity that refuses to reproduce WILL BE REPLACED by one that does not.

There was cooling during the midcentury or at least a period of no warming but that has been more or less explained now. http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidere...ry-cooling.php

Also most actually thought in the long term there would be global warming. http://www.realclimate.org/index.php...switch_lang/in

tuviskazinai · #82 May 13, '09, 4:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandymmiller

He doesn't just provide comfort. He provides. However, He expects our obedience and our trust. Allowing our fear of what "might" happen in a future that doesn't even exist yet to be an excuse to abandon God's laws is about as sensible as killing your child because you heard on the news that someone else's child killed them and you don't want the same thing to happen to you.

I agree with you that God provides, and your description of the way you have "turned to God" after being abused and taken advantage of is powerful. Thank you for that.

Just one comment about this paragraph...I'm not sure anyone here is saying that we should "abandon God's laws." At least, I am not. First of all we are just asking whether there is, or will be, an overpopulation problem in the future...and if so, what would some ways of addressing it be that wouldn't "abandon God's laws."

I may be mistaken, but that's been my impression so far...no one is saying we should support the abortion industry, for example.

Peace,
+AMDG+

brandymmiller · #83 May 13, '09, 4:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

Reasonably we can;t actually think that God meant procreate until we have no room left to stand. Remember those commandments were given when supposely there was only a few people left!

Calliso, are you trying to tell me that you think God can't count and He personally needs YOUR help in deciding how many people there should be on the planet? You think the very One who made the human body can't dry up the fertility if there's a need for that? He doesn't make mistakes, Calliso. He knows exactly how many people the Earth can hold and if it becomes a problem He will take care of that. Don't make yourself God by trying to do that for Him.

tuviskazinai · #84 May 13, '09, 4:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandymmiller

Calliso, are you trying to tell me that you think God can't count and He personally needs YOUR help in deciding how many people there should be on the planet? You think the very One who made the human body can't dry up the fertility if there's a need for that? He doesn't make mistakes, Calliso. He knows exactly how many people the Earth can hold and if it becomes a problem He will take care of that. Don't make yourself God by trying to do that for Him.

But...eek..."He will take care of that"? Such as...how? By giving us the intelligence to talk about these problems before they get out of control, like we are doing now? Or were you thinking, rather, by deciding that we've overpopulated enough and then, like, sending a giant flood or horrendous disease or something to kill off the surplus population?

All I mean to say is that I don't think we can just sit around like sheep waiting for God to tell us what to do (whom would he talk to? what would that be like, anyway?). We were given the ability to reason for a...well....for a reason.

Peace,
+AMDG+

brandymmiller · #85 May 13, '09, 4:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuviskazinai

Or were you thinking, rather, by deciding that we've overpopulated enough and then, like, sending a giant flood or horrendous disease or something to kill off the surplus population?Peace,
+AMDG+

When parents have added a few new children to the fold and the house they were in gets a little too small - they either add on to the house or buy a bigger one - not by killing off a couple of the more annoying kids they've had :P. If human beings are smart enough to think of such a plan, I think God can handle adding a new continent or an island to our humble home should we need a few more rooms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuviskazinai

All I mean to say is that I don't think we can just sit around like sheep waiting for God to tell us what to do (whom would he talk to? what would that be like, anyway?). We were given the ability to reason for a...well....for a reason.

The Bible tells us that we are to be like sheep, who trust in the shepherd to provide. Haven't you heard Jesus referred to as the Good Shepherd? Our reason is a tool intended to help us get to know God better and to help us accomplish the plan which He has for our lives. It is not intended that we should use this gift to attempt to elevate ourselves to the status of God by trying to dictate to Him how the universe ought to operate.

Calliso · #86 May 13, '09, 4:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuviskazinai

But...eek..."He will take care of that"? Such as...how? By giving us the intelligence to talk about these problems before they get out of control, like we are doing now? Or were you thinking, rather, by deciding that we've overpopulated enough and then, like, sending a giant flood or horrendous disease or something to kill off the surplus population?

All I mean to say is that I don't think we can just sit around like sheep waiting for God to tell us what to do (whom would he talk to? what would that be like, anyway?). We were given the ability to reason for a...well....for a reason.

Peace,
+AMDG+

Exactly...oh and I doubt God will add another continent or anything. Thinking God will do stuff like that is really just reaching and extreme hopeful thinking. I rather we deal with with our problems ourselves not pray God performs some massive miracle and do nothing.

brandymmiller · #87 May 13, '09, 4:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

Exactly...oh and I doubt God will add another continent or anything. Thinking God will do stuff like that is really just reaching and extreme hopeful thinking. I rather we deal with with our problems ourselves not pray God performs some massive miracle and do nothing.

The mechanisms to create new land require no miracle whatsoever as they are already in place - that's what undersea volcanoes do all the time. Don't believe me? Study history. Hawaii didn't always exist.

Calliso · #88 May 13, '09, 4:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandymmiller

The mechanisms to create new land require no miracle whatsoever as they are already in place - that's what undersea volcanoes do all the time. Don't believe me? Study history. Hawaii didn't always exist.

Yeah but creating whole new continents is a pretty big thing.. island might be a bit more reasonable. But even then the island masses might not be habitable for quite some time. Remember we have to think in time scales of human times..so if we become over populated we donlt have time to wait possible thousands maybe even millions of years for a land mass to form..then become habitable for life. So naturally forming new land wouldn;t be of much help to us if we needed it right then unless God stepped in and sped things up a bit.

brandymmiller · #89 May 13, '09, 4:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

There was cooling during the midcentury or at least a period of no warming but that has been more or less explained now. http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidere...ry-cooling.php

Also most actually thought in the long term there would be global warming. http://www.realclimate.org/index.php...switch_lang/in

Did you know Mars is experiencing its own global warming phenomena?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s-warming.html

Calliso · #90 May 13, '09, 4:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandymmiller

Did you know Mars is experiencing its own global warming phenomena?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s-warming.html

Hmm read the second page seems his views on the caused of Mars warming isn;t well accepted by most scientists. But more on Mars warming here. http://www.skepticalscience.com/glob...ng-on-mars.htm

It seems albedo is one of the primary theories as to why there is warming there. So no this neither proves or disproves AGW warming on Earth.