Anybody out there "pro-choice"? - Page 6

**po18guy** · #76 May 19, '09, 7:56 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodIsGracious

I am politically pro-choice. Only because I don't want anyone other than MY Church and faith telling *me* what to do.

To take away rights is a slippery slope I do not want to go down.

Well, thank the Lord that you were not the product of VIOLENT rape. If you were, you would have no rights and no life. Now, I see that as a slippery slope.

GodIsGracious · #77 May 19, '09, 8:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by po18guy

Well, thank the Lord that you were not the product of VIOLENT rape. If you were, you would have no rights and no life. Now, I see that as a slippery slope.

Yeah yeah, I've heard it all before. Still hasn't changed my mind.

ETA:

Usually people who like make comments like "woman made her choice" in regards to the pro-choice issue, they are usually assuming that women who are having an abortion were willing sex partners. I wanted remind people that is not always the case.

Secondly, many women who choose to have abortions are not doing it willy nilly. Many are going to do it no matter what. I'd rather not have them die. Where as, you would.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't have to worry about these things. We are not, however, in an ideal world. Mostly, I vote pro-CHOICE because I do not wish to have *any* particular group of people deign to tell me what to do. If we had it our way, everyone would be Catholic, we'd live in an ideal world, and this wouldn't be an issue.

However, this is not the case, unfortunately. Being pro-choice doesn't mean that you want everyone to have an abortion.

**po18guy** · #78 May 19, '09, 8:38 am

Consider:

A fetus conceived in the womb of a young, unmarried woman.

The fetus is mixed race in a society that is substantially racist.

A look into the future reveals:

That the father will basically never be involved in the child's life.

That the child will be raised by several different family members in different locations.

At age 10, the child will be exposed to, and develop a relationship with, an alleged pedophile and subversive.

Several who post here, under the banner of "rights" and "choice", would advise the young mother to abort. "Why bear the burden of this unplanned pregnancy? Why subject a child to such a life?" they might say. Taking their advice, she would then have aborted the very fetus who became the president that her "pro-choice" advisers recently elected. Set the morality aside for a few. Where is the logic? Abortion has consequences for mother, child and the world. Our president is alive because his mother was pro-life. Period.

"Oh", you might say, "abortion was not legal in 1961". Well, neither was homicide, but we also had plenty of those.

**po18guy** · #79 May 19, '09, 8:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodIsGracious

Yeah yeah, I've heard it all before. Still hasn't changed my mind.

ETA:

Usually people who like make comments like "woman made her choice" in regards to the pro-choice issue, they are usually assuming that women who are having an abortion were willing sex partners. I wanted remind people that is not always the case.

Secondly, many women who choose to have abortions are not doing it willy nilly. Many are going to do it no matter what. I'd rather not have them die. Where as, you would.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't have to worry about these things. We are not, however, in an ideal world. Mostly, I vote pro-CHOICE because I do not wish to have *any* particular group of people deign to tell me what to do. If we had it our way, everyone would be Catholic, we'd live in an ideal world, and this wouldn't be an issue.

However, this is not the case, unfortunately. Being pro-choice doesn't mean that you want everyone to have an abortion.

What you are saying is that the baby can be given the death penalty for the crime of being conceived.

**po18guy** · #80 May 19, '09, 8:54 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodIsGracious

If by saying this you mean a woman makes a decision because they had sex, let me remind you of FORCED sex. No they don't. That 9 year old GIRL in Brazil did not make that decision. Women raped, VIOLENTLY violated, don't make that decision.

I am politically pro-choice. Only because I don't want anyone other than MY Church and faith telling *me* what to do.

To take away rights is a slippery slope I do not want to go down.

I must point out that Planned Parenthood, whose labors you politically support, is repeatedly and once again accused of attempting to convince the young female victims of crime to conceal that crime. Illogical.

**po18guy** · #81 May 19, '09, 9:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodIsGracious

Yeah yeah, I've heard it all before. Still hasn't changed my mind.

Do you have such a casual attitude toward the death penalty? Toward war? To be consistent, you should.

Quote:

Usually people who like make comments like "woman made her choice" in regards to the pro-choice issue, they are usually assuming that women who are having an abortion were willing sex partners. I wanted remind people that is not always the case.

Does the innocent child deserve the death penalty?

Quote:

Secondly, many women who choose to have abortions are not doing it willy nilly. Many are going to do it no matter what. I'd rather not have them die. Where as, you would.

Quite an assumption you are making there - on several counts. If you remove the risk associated with any given human activity, you will get more of that activity. It is horrible if a mother dies in a botched abortion "legal" or otherwise. How is it better that the innocent child dies in every abortion?

Quote:

In an ideal world, we wouldn't have to worry about these things. We are not, however, in an ideal world. Mostly, I vote pro-CHOICE because I do not wish to have *any* particular group of people deign to tell me what to do. If we had it our way, everyone would be Catholic, we'd live in an ideal world, and this wouldn't be an issue.

So, as long as evil exists in this world, the proper response to it is more evil?

Quote:

However, this is not the case, unfortunately. Being pro-choice doesn't mean that you want everyone to have an abortion.

Words have meaning. 'Pro-choice" must be the evil one's favorite term. Aren't you pro-baby death, in cases where you personally agree with it?

(to paraphrase Francis Cardinal Arinze): I am personally opposed to shooting pro-abortion "Catholics". However, if someone else wants to do that, it is their choice. Explain the moral difference between this and your position.

Calliso · #82 May 19, '09, 9:39 am

Also another reason I am prochoice is basically cause I donlt think I have the right to say another woman should do what I am not completely sure I would be willing to do. Oh sure I can sit here and say I would never terminate a pregnancy of my own. But then again can I say that for sure? I mean the thought of having kids of being pregnant is an absolute nightmare for me. But I have a loving supporting husband, not all women have that. Not all women are in a stable situation like me. So if I can;t say with 100% conviction that I would never have an abortion..how can I tell another woman that she should have no choice in the matter and must carry the fetus to term?

GodIsGracious · #83 May 19, '09, 9:47 am

po18guy,

What I see is inconsistency in may "pro-life" people. Which I view many of whom to be "anti-choice." However, with Catholics, I do see a more consistent view re: death penalty (which I am against), war (which I am against), and abortion (which I am against.)

You're trying to deflect by saying that someone who is pro-choice is "pro-abortion." Some of us are not, while some are.

I have stated that 1) I'd rather have health care for a woman who will be insisting on having an abortion. YOU are being inconsistent by denying her that health care - you'd rather have her dead. (Well, I recognize that you'd rather have the woman carry the baby to term. I'm talking about women who insist on having an abortion.) 2) My pro-choice stance has a greater impact and view than the 1 trick pony political idealogy of voting on the abortion issue.

BTW, one assumption you're making about "removing risk == more of that activity" is false. There's not just risk, there is also cost/benefit involved.

Supporting pro-choice, doesn't mean supporting abortion. I wouldn't want to support an abortion with my money. Take public funding out of abortion. However, this would be difficult as I do support universal health care.

I've heard all the "pro-life" arguments before. I have not changed my mind, nor will I. The vilification of women who choose to get an abortion is abominable. Further, "pro-choice" political stance is more than just the abortion issue. Believe it or not, I actually do care about people - even though you don't view me that way. I find it atrocious that so much energy is spent on this one single issue, yet other issues that take away the quality of life for people are largely ignored. (of course, you'll say that abortion takes away the quality of life.) I wonder just how many pro-life - or rather - anti-choice people have thought of the fact that had people had a better quality of life, abortion may not be necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by po18guy

Do you have such a casual attitude toward the death penalty? Toward war? To be consistent, you should.

Does the innocent child deserve the death penalty?

Quite an assumption you are making there - on several counts. If you remove the risk associated with any given human activity, you will get more of that activity. It is horrible if a mother dies in a botched abortion "legal" or otherwise. How is it better that the innocent child dies in every abortion?

So, as long as evil exists in this world, the proper response to it is more evil?

Words have meaning. 'Pro-choice" must be the evil one's favorite term. Aren't you pro-baby death, in cases where you personally agree with it?

(to paraphrase Francis Cardinal Arinze): I am personally opposed to shooting pro-abortion "Catholics". However, if someone else wants to do that, it is their choice. Explain the moral difference between this and your position.

**fix** · #84 May 19, '09, 10:01 am

Pro choice=pro abortion. Hiding from that is futile.

**po18guy** · #85 May 19, '09, 10:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

Also another reason I am prochoice is basically cause I donlt think I have the right to say another woman should do what I am not completely sure I would be willing to do. Oh sure I can sit here and say I would never terminate a pregnancy of my own. But then again can I say that for sure? I mean the thought of having kids of being pregnant is an absolute nightmare for me. But I have a loving supporting husband, not all women have that. Not all women are in a stable situation like me. So if I can;t say with 100% conviction that I would never have an abortion..how can I tell another woman that she should have no choice in the matter and must carry the fetus to term?

So, you are personally opposed to killing, but if others want to do so, it's OK?

Calliso · #86 May 19, '09, 10:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by po18guy

So, you are personally opposed to killing, but if others want to do so, it's OK?

What I am saying is I donlt think at least on the issue of abortions partically early term abortions since I can;t say with 100% conviction I would never get one at such a stage. It would feel wrong for me to then say I feel any other woman shouldn;t have a choice either. Ideally though I would like there to be little to no abortions. But I donlt think making them illegal will help that.

**po18guy** · #87 May 19, '09, 11:00 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodIsGracious

po18guy,

What I see is inconsistency in may "pro-life" people. Which I view many of whom to be "anti-choice." However, with Catholics, I do see a more consistent view re: death penalty (which I am against), war (which I am against), and abortion (which I am against.)

You appear to be compartmentalizing here. Let others kill - so long as you're not involved? You ARE involved. Your taxes are paying for death, whether by war, death penalty, or abortion. Are you really against all three? Why aren't you "pro-choice" on war or the death penalty? I mean, you are not killing anyone, or waging war - so what if someone else wants to? Isn't that their choice?

Pick a side. Choosing to let others choose is not making a decision. Didn't Pontius Pilate do this?

Quote:

You're trying to deflect by saying that someone who is pro-choice is "pro-abortion." Some of us are not, while some are.

Like pregnancy, you either are or are not. Are you also projecting a little here?

Quote:

I have stated that 1) I'd rather have health care for a woman who will be insisting on having an abortion. YOU are being inconsistent by denying her that health care - you'd rather have her dead. (Well, I recognize that you'd rather have the woman carry the baby to term. I'm talking about women who insist on having an abortion.) 2) My pro-choice stance has a greater impact and view than the 1 trick pony political idealogy of voting on the abortion issue.

Oh, I see! It's all my fault! YOU mentioned "health care". I did not. Are you trying to demonize or marginalize those who disagree with you? Sounds like it from my chair.

Quote:

BTW, one assumption you're making about "removing risk == more of that activity" is false. There's not just risk, there is also cost/benefit involved.

Ever study economic theory?

Quote:

Supporting pro-choice, doesn't mean supporting abortion.

Yes, it does.

Quote:

I wouldn't want to support an abortion with my money. Take public funding out of abortion. However, this would be difficult as I do support universal health care.

This is a canard! You effectively support abortion - it's just that you package them with more palatable benefits. Aren't you sublimating the evil of abortion to the "greater good" of health care? You still support evil. There is no way around it.

Isn't it astounding and scandalous that you refer to yourself as "Roman Catholic" while standing 100% in opposition to the Church on the most basic life issue - the right to it? How can you call yourself a Catholic, which is a set of beliefs and teachings, if you do not believe or teach in agreement with them? I find this amazing!

SteveGC · #88 May 19, '09, 11:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliso

Ideally though I would like there to be little to no abortions. But I donlt think making them illegal will help that.

Why would you think laws prohibiting something wouldn't help that "something" decrease in frequency significantly?

Is there anything illegal out there (i.e. murder, theft, fraud, prostitution) that you think would not occur in greater numbers if it were legalized?

Calliso · #89 May 19, '09, 11:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveGC

Why would you think laws prohibiting something wouldn't help that "something" decrease in frequency significantly?

Is there anything illegal out there (i.e. murder, theft, fraud, prostitution) that you think would not occur in greater numbers if it were legalized?

Off the top of my head no. But as I understand it there has even been a major study done that shows there isn;t much difference between countries that have illegalized abortions and those who have it legal. In fact from what I rememeber the both the highest and lowest rate of abortion occured in countries where it was legal. So to me that means it;s a bit more complicated then simply making it illegal. Now I think making it illegal would cut down on the number somewhat. But not much. Really I haven;t seen anything that tells me that making abortion illegal would really help the situation..and not potentially cause new problems of it;s own. Now maybe one day with other changes made we could make abortion illegal but right now no I think at least for the early stages it needs to remain legal.

SteveGC · #90 May 19, '09, 11:39 am

Faithful, pro-life Catholics are not believers in a "1 trick pony" or silver bullet political strategy to thwart abortion....thinking that if we outlaw abortion, the problem will go away.

On the contrary, we fully support the education and ministry to women and men, not only in the proper preparation and commitment (in marriage) to bear children, but also in the significance of the sanctity of life - regardless of the conditions under which a pregnancy occurs (unintended, birth defected, rape, etc). People need to know that children are to be conceived through a loving and sacramental marriage, and they also need to know that taking the life of that conceived child is never an option to God. We also fully support and encourage new health care initiatives aimed at minimizing risks to both mother and child during pregnancy and delivery.

That being said, it is also as significant that we align ourselves civilly and politically with our spirituality and faith. Laws allowing abortion are the biggest single obstacle to our attempts at that alignment, and therefore must be addressed. Hence, faithful Catholics everywhere are called to stand up against legalized abortion....not against the people who perform them or acquire them....but against the ideology which has allowed the abortive act to take place within the confines of the law. This is unacceptable, intolerable.

This is the essence of Catholic pro-life....put an end to the legalization, fully support robust health care to women with birth complications, and educate and minister to all people regarding the sanctity of conception and life.