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  #1  
Old May 9, '09, 6:05 pm
RomeoCharlie RomeoCharlie is offline
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Default " 'TODAY' you will be with me in 'PARADISE' "??

While on His Holy Cross, Jesus told the good thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43) Our Lord used the word "today". However, He did not ascend to heaven (or paradise) on that day. In fact, He did not ascend to heaven for many days after He rose from the dead. So what did Jesus mean by "today"?

Could it be that both Our Lord and the thief did indeed experience paradise on that day, even though Jesus still had to descend to the dead, rise to the living, and ascend to heaven? If this is the case, then paradise and heaven are not synonymous.

Could it also be that "today" means different things in different languages?

Of course, there are those who point to the "today" dilemma as proof that Jesus was not who He claimed to be, and therefore should be rejected.

What do you make of this?

Peace of Christ
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  #2  
Old May 9, '09, 7:37 pm
Cachonga Cachonga is offline
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Default Re: " 'TODAY' you will be with me in 'PARADISE' "??

I would first remind you of the story of Lazarus and the rich man. This was a true story, not a parable (Jesus used a proper name (Lazarus), which he never did with parables). The rich man was in hell, while Lazarus was with Abraham in a place called Abraham's bosom. They were also able to look across the great gulf between them and communicate. I would suggest that, since clearly Abraham was in this place, it is not unreasonable to imagine other Old Testament saints being in this place, and that this could easily be the Paradise Jesus referred to.
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  #3  
Old May 9, '09, 8:03 pm
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Eucharisted Eucharisted is offline
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Default Re: " 'TODAY' you will be with me in 'PARADISE' "??

When Jesus' soul descended into hell (limbo of the fathers), He took the righteous into Heaven, for His death had reopened Heaven for mankind.

Therefore, Jesus spoke truly when He said today the thief would be with Him in paradise.

But there is a deeper meaning to this mystery. Jesus' soul was with those who longed for God, and He led them into Heaven. He was, in a sense, sharing in the pain of the souls of Purgatory amid the purging flames and in their joy upon entering into Paradise. And this is the possible in the same way that He was able to obtain for Mary her Immaculate Conception. He is God, all time is one before Him, and His Holy Sacrifice is eternal.
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  #4  
Old May 9, '09, 9:22 pm
RomeoCharlie RomeoCharlie is offline
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Default Re: " 'TODAY' you will be with me in 'PARADISE' "??

Thanks Cachonga and Eucharisted,

Your info. led me to the Catholic Encyclopedia. I think I have a better handle on the subject now.

Peace of Christ
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  #5  
Old May 12, '09, 2:19 am
colliric colliric is offline
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Default Re: " 'TODAY' you will be with me in 'PARADISE' "??

Quote:
Originally Posted by RomeoCharlie View Post
While on His Holy Cross, Jesus told the good thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43) Our Lord used the word "today". However, He did not ascend to heaven (or paradise) on that day. In fact, He did not ascend to heaven for many days after He rose from the dead. So what did Jesus mean by "today"?

Could it be that both Our Lord and the thief did indeed experience paradise on that day, even though Jesus still had to descend to the dead, rise to the living, and ascend to heaven? If this is the case, then paradise and heaven are not synonymous.

Could it also be that "today" means different things in different languages?

Of course, there are those who point to the "today" dilemma as proof that Jesus was not who He claimed to be, and therefore should be rejected.

What do you make of this?

Peace of Christ
Jesus took the Good Theif with him into the place of the Dead, where not only the bad but the Good souls went. One jewish belief concerning the afterlife at the time was that some souls, those that were Good, went though a cleaning process simular to what we call Purgatory, where they were purged from their sins and waited for the coming of the messiah.

IT is synonymous with Heaven because Jesus dwelled there with the Good souls for the 3 days. When he left that place, he took the clean Good sinless souls with him as he ascended into heaven.

It was Paradise, because our Lord was made present to the just souls of the place of the dead. and they were raised with him to heaven.
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  #6  
Old Jul 5, '09, 2:40 am
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Simeon Hovey Simeon Hovey is offline
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Post Re: " 'TODAY' you will be with me in 'PARADISE' "??

RomeoCharlie

I've translated Luke 23:43 from Greek (the Textus Receptus) and have provided definitions for:

to day (That's how it is in the Greek vice today.)
paradise (paradise is used 3x in the NT, the verses are given below.)
heaven (is used 278x in the NT.)

In answer to one of your questions the greek word, semeron, doesn't necessarily mean 24 hours.

Hope this helps, Simeon Hovey

Luke 23:43 (Despite the modern usage of Greek capital letters there was no capitalization in ancient Greek, nor commas, paragraphs, periods &etc.

Textus Receptus: kai eipen auto o ihsous amhn lego soi shmeron met emou esh en to paradeiso

Literal English: and said to him for his sake jesus verily I say to you to day with me you shall be in the paradise

Modern English: and for his sake, Jesus said to him, "Verily I say to you, in a few days you shall be with me in Paradise." (See Strongs 2250 below.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"to day" (Strongs 4594.) semeron - neuter (as adverb) of a presumed compound of the article 3588 and 2250; on the (i.e. this) day (or night current or just passed); generally, now (i.e. at present, hitherto):

Strongs 3588. o - in all their inflections; the definite article; the, this, that, one, he, she, it, [SH and 23 other meanings].

Strongs 2250. hemera - feminine of a derivative of hemai (to sit) meaning tame, i.e. gentle; day, i.e. (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):--age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"paradise" (Strongs 3857.) paradeisos - a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness). Paradise is used 3 times in the OT/NT: Luke 23:43, 2 CO 12:14, Rev 2:7.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Heaven/s" (Strongs 3772) ouranos - Perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel[Good News](Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky. (SH: used 278 in the NT.)

Strongs 3735. oros - mountain: probably from an obsolete oro (to rise or "rear"; a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): -hill, mount(-ain).

(SH: In the OT God is frequently referred to as an unshakeable mountain or rock.)

Last edited by Simeon Hovey; Jul 5, '09 at 2:57 am.
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  #7  
Old Jul 5, '09, 5:15 am
Jim in Scotland Jim in Scotland is offline
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Default Re: " 'TODAY' you will be with me in 'PARADISE' "??

The simplest explanation is the comma - there isn't any in the Greek.

I tell you solemnly today, you will be with me in paradise
rather than
I tell you solemnly, today you will be with me in paradise
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  #8  
Old Jul 5, '09, 9:56 am
Mailman Mailman is offline
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Default Re: " 'TODAY' you will be with me in 'PARADISE' "??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in Scotland View Post
The simplest explanation is the comma - there isn't any in the Greek.

I tell you solemnly today, you will be with me in paradise
rather than
I tell you solemnly, today you will be with me in paradise
You're right, Jim. There is no punctuation in the Greek. Punctuations are supplied by the translators. I also agree with your rendering of the verse. “I tell you solemnly today, you will be with me in paradise.” By using the word “today,” Jesus was stressing the time of His promise – not the time He would be in paradise.

The repentant thief crucified with Jesus did not go to paradise that day. Even now he is still dead and buried. Jesus alone is the firstborn from the dead (Rom. 8:29; Acts 26:23; I Cor. 15:23). But the time will come when this man will be resurrected also and eventually enter the Paradise of God, as Christ promised.
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  #9  
Old Jul 5, '09, 12:45 pm
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COPLAND 3 COPLAND 3 is offline
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Default Re: " 'TODAY' you will be with me in 'PARADISE' "??

I recommend this http://litteralchristianlibrary.wetp...+the+Afterlife
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