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  #1  
Old May 18, '09, 10:55 am
Macd144 Macd144 is offline
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Default Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

I read a great blog from Inside Catholic regarding the role that the Oregon Catholic Press has played in the not only Liturgical Music, but the overall Liturgy. (see link below)

http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/ind...5990&Itemid=48

My question is; the article lists examples of hymns that are used today which the author does not think are quality/traditional hymns. I love sacred and traditional hymns and would like to know if anyone has a list of or a link to the traditional hymns and chants that the author did not identify. The reason I ask is that I would like to study the list and become more familiar with the traditional, older hymns and chants that I just don't seem to get at my parish.

God Bless,

Last edited by Macd144; May 18, '09 at 10:56 am. Reason: Grammatical Errors
  #2  
Old May 18, '09, 12:38 pm
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PhilotheaZ PhilotheaZ is offline
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Default Re: Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

This link http://www.ignatius.com/Books/Adorem...ns.aspx?SID=1& gives the index of hymns included in The Adoremus Hymnal, which would probably be a good place to start.
  #3  
Old May 18, '09, 1:22 pm
Joan REDirector Joan REDirector is offline
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Default Re: Tradition/Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macd144 View Post
I read a great blog from Inside Catholic regarding the role that the Oregon Catholic Press has played in the not only Liturgical Music, but the overall Liturgy. (see link below)

http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/ind...5990&Itemid=48

My question is; the article lists examples of hymns that are used today which the author does not think are quality/traditional hymns. I love sacred and traditional hymns and would like to know if anyone has a list of or a link to the traditional hymns and chants that the author did not identify. The reason I ask is that I would like to study the list and become more familiar with the traditional, older hymns and chants that I just don't seem to get at my parish.

God Bless,
I hope ... I hope this thread goes on. I take you request seriously. At the end of my post I'll give my list of hymns.

I'm 62 years old, a German Catholic woman from a long line of such. I was born and raised in a small German farming community in Idaho. Morning and evening, I could hear the bells from the Benedictine motherhouse of St. Gertrude. Many strong and intelligent women from both Europe and America were attracted to this place. As a result, God was praised with great beauty and majesty in the Divine Office and the Mass. These same women taught me at St Joseph's grade school and at St Gertrude's Academy. I know what Liturgy could and should be and I know how to do it. The sisters taught me well.

Hope the bio isn't boring ... just want to show where I'm coming from.

I read the link in your post (hope future posters read it) and am in agreement. I've worked in church music all my life as an ill paid staffer and as a volunteer, so the sentiments expressed in the article resonate with me. I also have a degree in theology from a liberal Catholic institution (gotten by keeping my mouth shut and telling the professors what they wanted to hear on exams). I know the "modern" theology that underpins much of modern hymnody.

The ubiquitous OCP filled a need. The Liturgy boat was overturned in the wake of Vatican II. Lacking leadership from our local bishops [edited] parish musicians turned for help wherever they could. OCP was there. We've all seen the fruits. As people my age die, the memory of two thousand years of the Latin Rite ) dies with us ( I know ... I know. The New Testament was written in Greek and the Latin language is one of many).

Having said all that, I warn you. You're going to get a bunch of #$%^&*@ ( on the farm it stood in steaming piles in the barnyard) from bitter, ignorant people who think they are "traditional" Catholics. They haven't seen the Latin Rite in its splendor and don't seem to know that this beauty can't come from narrow sets of rules. They also don't seem to know that the essence of right liturgy comes from humility and that includes humble submission to the authority of the local pastor and the bishop, weak and misguided though they might be at times.

The Holy Spirit can't be overpowered. Good has come from Catholic liturgical life as it is now and some truly beautiful music has been written that would not otherwise have been and, YES, some of that Spirit inspired music is published by OCP.

Here are my traditional picks, all from OCP and BTW all our children in the Religious Education program at my parish learn them as part of the RE curriculum. Beware of OCP English translations, they are inaccurate, at best.

Adoro Te Devote #533 OCP BB
Ave Maria #703 OCP BB
In Paradisum # 841 OCP BB
Jesu Dulcis Memoria # 368 OCP BB
Adeste Fidelis # 78 OCP BB
Pange Lingua Glorisi ( also Tantum Ergo) p116 OCP BB
Parce Domine # 130 OCP BB
Salve Regina # 702 OCP BB
Ubi Caritas # 421 ( with "est vera" back to "et amor")OCP BB
Veni Creator Spiritus #196 OCP BB
Chant Mass # 859 to 864 (we do Mass of the Angels Kyrie)OCP BB

Last edited by Jean Anthony; May 18, '09 at 2:53 pm. Reason: derogatory remarks
  #4  
Old May 18, '09, 2:34 pm
benedictgal benedictgal is offline
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Default Re: Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

The huge problem with OCP is that, as far as I can tell, the pubishing house has never bothered to read the authoritative documents of the Holy See, going back to 1903 when Pope St. Pius X wrote his Motu Propio on Sacred Music to the 2003 Chirograph on Sacred Music written by Pope John Paul II. The publishing house has also apparently ignored Liturgiam Authenticam, the authoritative document of the Holy See that oversees translations for liturgical use.

Case in point. Ferrell's Mass of Hope setting does not jibe with what is written in the Roman Missal. The setting that she wrote for the Agnus Dei does not even match what is in the Roman Missal. The same holds true for Marty Haugen's Mass of Creation. Tropies are not allowed (despite what Sing to the Lord - the new USCCB document on music), especially since they do not match up with the Agnus Dei. In Spanish, it is much worse, as someone at OCP has apparently taken a hatchet and excised all references to God the Father and the Holy Name of Jesus Christ from the Gloria. Bob Hurd strings all three invocations of the Agnus Dei together.

I recentlly put in a call to the Office of Worship for the Archdiocese of Portland, which is home-base to OCP. My concerns revolved around Fr. Rory Cooper's awful rendition and badly paraphrased version of the Exultet, which was written to be performed with bongo drums. There was no direct reference to the Felix Culpa and the angels were dancing for joy. The director for worship told me that this version should not have been used. I also brought up Ferrell's music and she also agreed with me that such variances should not be happening. I told her that regardless of how many Metropolitan Archbishops and Cardinals sit on the board, there needs to be better quality control. We worry about how many calories a can of Dr. Pepper has or what the sodium level of a DQ Hungerbuster is, but, when it comes to Sacred Music, it does not seem to matter.

My parish, unfortunately, is stuck, lock, stock and two smoking barrels, into the whole OCP thing. In fact, our music director is a slave to their liturgical planning guide. When I planned liturgies at our Cathedral, I never used these materials. Granted, I had to use the OCP stuff in Spanish because they have the monopoly on the market, but, all of my English hymns came from the older version of the Worship III hymnal (before GIA took a hatchet and butchered the translations to make them more inclusive).

Inasmuch as the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments indicated that the texts of the ordinary of the Mass cannot be paraphrased and must be done as is, I wonder how OCP and GIA are going to handle the new translations. The Holy See allowed the new Ordinary to be releasd to give composers plenty of time to comply with Liturgiam Authenticam. I hope that OCP will comply. I also hope that GIA will also comply.

Last edited by benedictgal; May 18, '09 at 2:47 pm.
  #5  
Old May 18, '09, 2:51 pm
benedictgal benedictgal is offline
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Default Re: Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

Something else to note is that I seriously doubt that any of the compoers or the OCP board has ever read what both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI said about sacred music. Let' see what Pope John Paul II wrote back in 2003 in his Chirograph on Sacred Music:

Quote:
4. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, "sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action"[11]. For this very reason, "not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold", my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that "if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious"[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category "sacred music" has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.

St Pius X's reform aimed specifically at purifying Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music that in many countries had polluted the repertoire and musical praxis of the Liturgy. In our day too, careful thought, as I emphasized in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, should be given to the fact that not all the expressions of figurative art or of music are able "to express adequately the mystery grasped in the fullness of the Church's faith"[14]. Consequently, not all forms of music can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

5. Another principle, affirmed by St Pius X in the Motu Proprio Tra le Sollecitudini and which is closely connected with the previous one, is that of sound form. There can be no music composed for the celebration of sacred rites which is not first of all "true art" or which does not have that efficacy "which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her Liturgy the art of musical sounds"[15].

Yet this quality alone does not suffice. Indeed, liturgical music must meet the specific prerequisites of the Liturgy: full adherence to the text it presents, synchronization with the time and moment in the Liturgy for which it is intended, appropriately reflecting the gestures proposed by the rite. The various moments in the Liturgy require a musical expression of their own. From time to time this must fittingly bring out the nature proper to a specific rite, now proclaiming God's marvels, now expressing praise, supplication or even sorrow for the experience of human suffering which, however, faith opens to the prospect of Christian hope.
Here is what Pope Benedict wrote in Spirit of the Liturgy:

Quote:
Then there are two developments in music itself that have their origins primarily in the West but that for a long time have affected the whole of mankind in the world culture that is being formed. Modern so-called "classical" music has maneuvered itself, with some exceptions, into an elitist ghetto, which only specialists may enter -- and even they do so with what may sometimes be mixed feelings. The music of the masses has broken loose from this and treads a very different path.

On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. "Rock", on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit's sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.
These two statements, I believe, should be the guideposts for anyone wanting to write Sacred Music, music that is indeed fit to cross the threshold.

A lot of what is written in Spirit and Song is certainly not appropriate for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Proponents of this kind of music will claim that it is scriptural, but, the settings and the arrangement are more along the lines of a rock concert than they are for the Mass. A lot of Bob Hurd's music is also not fit as he focuses more on the community and our grand and glorious selves rather than paying due worship to God. "O Love of God/O Amor de Dios" talks about what "we" are doing, rather than what "He" is doing. That is par for the course for most of Bob Hurd's music.

David Haas and Marty Haugen (although GIA's stable writers, they are also incorporated into the OCP bunch) pretty much fall along the same lines. "Gather Us In" sounds too much like the "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" and David Haas has more than a few theologically challenged songs.
  #6  
Old May 18, '09, 4:59 pm
Joan REDirector Joan REDirector is offline
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Default Re: Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

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Originally Posted by benedictgal View Post
Something else to note is that I seriously doubt that any of the compoers or the OCP board has ever read what both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI said about sacred music. Let' see what Pope John Paul II wrote back in 2003 in his Chirograph on Sacred Music:



Here is what Pope Benedict wrote in Spirit of the Liturgy:



These two statements, I believe, should be the guideposts for anyone wanting to write Sacred Music, music that is indeed fit to cross the threshold.

A lot of what is written in Spirit and Song is certainly not appropriate for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Proponents of this kind of music will claim that it is scriptural, but, the settings and the arrangement are more along the lines of a rock concert than they are for the Mass. A lot of Bob Hurd's music is also not fit as he focuses more on the community and our grand and glorious selves rather than paying due worship to God. "O Love of God/O Amor de Dios" talks about what "we" are doing, rather than what "He" is doing. That is par for the course for most of Bob Hurd's music.

David Haas and Marty Haugen (although GIA's stable writers, they are also incorporated into the OCP bunch) pretty much fall along the same lines. "Gather Us In" sounds too much like the "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" and David Haas has more than a few theologically challenged songs.
Here's a question for you. Is the problem with OCP one of bad taste or bad theology?
  #7  
Old May 18, '09, 5:05 pm
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Brendan Brendan is offline
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Default Re: Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

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Originally Posted by Joan REDirector View Post
Here's a question for you. Is the problem with OCP one of bad taste or bad theology?
C: All of the above
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Old May 18, '09, 5:13 pm
Joan REDirector Joan REDirector is offline
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Default Re: Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

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Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
C: All of the above
OK, Brendan. Which is worse?
  #9  
Old May 18, '09, 8:25 pm
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Default Re: Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

Personally I can't stand OCP. I much prefer the Adoremus Hymnal. But then again I'm a Trad stuck in the NO with a few rare trips into TLM land.
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Old May 18, '09, 8:44 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

of the two, I would say bad theology is definitely worse. One can have 'good theology' and yet have bad taste, and while an admittedly poor example of such might be having the 'good theology' to use sacred music properly, but the 'bad taste' to, for example, insist on using the same chant mode, the same mass setting, day after day and year after year, as stultifying and annoying as this might be, it is still 'good theology' through the music.

OTOH, a person with bad theology might plan a liturgy which used marvelous settings, all the 'chant' in place. . .and have said chant performed by 'liturgical dancers'. Or by the choir, overpoweringly, dressed in Notre Dame football uniforms, or wearing rainbow sashes. Because instead of having good theology 'inform' the good music, the good music is treated not as being sacred in and of itself, or to be used for that purpose along with EVERYTHING ELSE associated with our worship of God, but simply as a 'performance' piece, or whoever it might 'fit in' to the liturgical director/priest/ whomever. This person (with the bad theology) thus might have the occasional great Mass done 'right', but not for the sake of actually 'doing the Mass right', but only because he/she had another NEED (outside Mass itself) which need the music 'happened to fit.' And the very next Sunday, this bad theologian's 'need' at Sunday Mass might require "Jesus Christ Superstar" to be sung by the choir.

Now, 'good theology" might have to use 'not so great' music for a variety of reasons, but 'good theology' will limit the 'repercussions of the bad' and do its best to make the bad acceptable, or as tolerable as can be.

There is a perceptible difference between the liturgical dancers tumbling through the aisles belting out Godspell's 'Prepare Ye the way of the Lord" and an organist perhaps fumbling through, oh, "On Eagles' Wings'. That is, the liturgical dancers can make the already miserable 'Godspell' riff much worse. A fumbling organist (doing his/her best) is mildly uncomfortable to the musically talented listener, and "On Eagles Wings" is horrifically overused IMO, but all else being equal, the former is liturgically worse than the latter.
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Old May 18, '09, 9:39 pm
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Default Re: Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

Speaking as someone from the outside looking in:

Every major Western denomination in the USA has its own official hymnal.

Isn't it time for the USCCB to go and do likewise?
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Old May 19, '09, 8:07 am
benedictgal benedictgal is offline
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Default Re: Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

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Originally Posted by Cluny View Post
Speaking as someone from the outside looking in:

Every major Western denomination in the USA has its own official hymnal.

Isn't it time for the USCCB to go and do likewise?
That was the direction in which Liturgiam Authenticam was headed. Sing to the Lord was supposed to have more teeth to it, but, it got hijacked by the NPM and the FDLC. If you were to look at the powerpoint that the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship had posted (prior to SttL), it had the indications that they were heading there. However, the two aforementioned organizations, along with OCP and GIA lobbied the USCCB and we strayed far away from Liturgiam Authenticam's original intent.
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Old May 19, '09, 8:09 am
benedictgal benedictgal is offline
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Default Re: Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

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Originally Posted by Joan REDirector View Post
Here's a question for you. Is the problem with OCP one of bad taste or bad theology?
Both.
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Old May 19, '09, 9:55 am
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Default Re: Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

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OK, Brendan. Which is worse?
Bad Theology of course. No one goes to hell for having bad artistic taste. People do got to hell for having bad theology.
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Old May 19, '09, 10:06 am
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Default Re: Tradition/ Contemporary Liturgical Music and the Role of OCP

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Originally Posted by Cluny View Post
Speaking as someone from the outside looking in:

Every major Western denomination in the USA has its own official hymnal.

Isn't it time for the USCCB to go and do likewise?
That is one of the things that Liturgicam Authenticam called for. The document dealt with two aspects of the Liturgy. One was the faithful translations of texts, and the output from that is the new translation of the Missal that we will hopefully see.

The second aspect called for a look at the music used and it's output is supposed to be a standard hymnal ( a "Common Repitoire of Liturgical Songs") of doctrinally correct songs.

The US Bishops recieved permission to work on the Missal translation first, and then to tackle the music. But it will happen eventually.

Here is a powerpoint on the USCCB website that describes what Liturgicam Authenticam demands, how it relates to current music and what are the actions required by the USCCB. This powerpoint was used by the Committee on the Liturgy to brief the bishops at large on what was to be expected.

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/MUSIC%20FDLCnew.ppt
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