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  #1  
Old May 23, '09, 1:29 pm
Palm Tree Palm Tree is offline
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Default Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

All three are grave sins. It seems like most Catholics are more tolerant to those that chronically view pornography and/or that chronically masturbate.

Is it because we think homosexuality is "more weird" or "more sinful" than masturbation or pornography?

Is it because masturbation and pornography is most often done behind closed doors, while we think that homosexuality is something that is more likely to flaunted in public?

And those are just three of the grave sins, they are many, many others.
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  #2  
Old May 23, '09, 1:41 pm
teachccd teachccd is offline
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

Any of which you mention are equally offensive to God when known and committed with full consent. All three are a disordered use of our sexuality. Acts of homosexuality are not more grave and to think so would be a deception.........teachccd
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Old May 23, '09, 1:45 pm
TNAB TNAB is offline
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

By homosexuality, if you mean homosexual acts, then yes, that is wrong...but NOT homosexuality itself..This is "disordered" in the words of the Church but is in no means worthy of sinful status (since many are born with this "disorder")...

I guess I would compare the gravity of homosexual acts to the act of premarital sex...Both are unnatural and gravely sinful..Perhaps the reason that masturbation is grave, but perhaps less so, is because this is often much more habitual, very common, and not always known to be grave by those who do it until they are told that it is..it seems that this is a sin that is commonly not committed in full knowledge until someone informs them that it is grave...Just my opinion on the matter.
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Old May 23, '09, 1:45 pm
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palm Tree View Post
All three are grave sins. It seems like most Catholics are more tolerant to those that chronically view pornography and/or that chronically masturbate.

Is it because we think homosexuality is "more weird" or "more sinful" than masturbation or pornography?

Is it because masturbation and pornography is most often done behind closed doors, while we think that homosexuality is something that is more likely to flaunted in public?

And those are just three of the grave sins, they are many, many others.
Are all equally grave whether they can be witnessed in public or private. God sees all either way..
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Old May 23, '09, 1:48 pm
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

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Originally Posted by TNAB View Post
By homosexuality, if you mean homosexual acts, then yes, that is wrong...but NOT homosexuality itself..This is "disordered" in the words of the Church but is in no means worthy of sinful status (since many are born with this "disorder")...

I guess I would compare the gravity of homosexual acts to the act of premarital sex...Both are unnatural and gravely sinful..Perhaps the reason that masturbation is grave, but perhaps less so, is because this is often much more habitual, very common, and not always known to be grave by those who do it until they are told that it is..it seems that this is a sin that is commonly not committed in full knowledge until someone informs them that it is grave...Just my opinion on the matter.
I more or less agree..M is something that one usually knows is wrong, but doesn't always want to break away from it. H is a form of fornication in my view..
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  #6  
Old May 23, '09, 1:52 pm
Palm Tree Palm Tree is offline
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

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Originally Posted by teachccd View Post
Any of which you mention are equally offensive to God when known and committed with full consent. All three are a disordered use of our sexuality. Acts of homosexuality are not more grave and to think so would be a deception.........teachccd
So if a priest has three parishioners:

One tells the priest the he thinks viewing pornography is okay, and that he is not going to view it as sinful.

One tell the priest that he thinks masturbating is okay, and that he is not going to view it as sinful.

One tell the priest that he thinks homosexuality is okay, and that he is not going to view it as sinful.

Is it okay for the priest to refuse communion the homosexual, but not the other two?
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Old May 23, '09, 2:07 pm
Palm Tree Palm Tree is offline
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

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Originally Posted by TNAB View Post
By homosexuality, if you mean homosexual acts, then yes, that is wrong...but NOT homosexuality itself..This is "disordered" in the words of the Church but is in no means worthy of sinful status (since many are born with this "disorder")...

I guess I would compare the gravity of homosexual acts to the act of premarital sex...Both are unnatural and gravely sinful..Perhaps the reason that masturbation is grave, but perhaps less so, is because this is often much more habitual, very common, and not always known to be grave by those who do it until they are told that it is..it seems that this is a sin that is commonly not committed in full knowledge until someone informs them that it is grave...Just my opinion on the matter.
Yes, I meant homosexual acts, thanks for pointing that out.

Yeah, I've heard these arguments that homosexual acts and premarital sex are worse grave sins than the graves sins of masturbation and pornography...

1) the grave sins of homosexual acts and premarital sex involves two people, so you're helping another commit a grave sin. With the grave sins of masturbation and pornography, you are usually doing that by yourself, so you're not helping another commit a grave sin.

2) the graves sins of masturbation and pornography, done alone, can help someone from commiting the grave sins of homosexual acts and premartial sex with another
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  #8  
Old May 23, '09, 2:09 pm
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

It is an article of faith that homosexual acts are graver than the other two. Masturbation and pornography are also, of course, grave acts. Viewing pornography by itself (without masturbation) would be, in my opinion, slightly less grave than the physical act of masturbation (as this would be an additional sin against the body - see 1 Corinthians 6:18 where St. Paul teaches us that sexual sins are against the body, a gift of God, and thus graver than many other sins). Homosexual sex is graver than masturbation, I would say, as it perverts and mocks the sacred act of sexual intercourse, and involves two souls, not one. It is a very common modern heresy to suggest that all grave sins are equally grave in God's eyes. All grave sins deserve damnation, but God is just...some sins cause greater harm than others. Those who claim that all grave sins are equal need to read their catechism and use some common sense:

Quote:
CCC #1858:
Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger. (Emphasis added)
And in fact, the Catechism CLEARLY TEACHES US that homosexuality is a graver sin than other sexual sins:

Quote:
CCC 1867
The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are "sins that cry to heaven": the blood of Abel,139 the sin of the Sodomites,140 the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt,141 the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan,142 injustice to the wage earner.143
Note that the sin of the Sodomites (homosexual sins) are in this category of the gravest of grave sins (thsoe that cry to heaven), but simple fornication, masturbation, etc are not. On a related note, St. Thomas Aquinas teaches us that masturbation is graver than fornication as at least fornication is a natural act (just in the incorrect context).

All of that being said, this is simply in terms of whichs sins are objectively graver...individual considerations are taken into account by Our Lord of course.
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  #9  
Old May 23, '09, 2:32 pm
need_to_know need_to_know is offline
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

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Originally Posted by Palm Tree View Post
2) the graves sins of masturbation and pornography, done alone, can help someone from commiting the grave sins of homosexual acts and premartial sex with another
I just want to point out that using pornography always involves more than one person. Using pornography supports an industry of sin. Depending on the type of pornography, it will almost always involve the homosexual acts and/or premartial sex with another.
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  #10  
Old May 23, '09, 5:46 pm
teachccd teachccd is offline
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palm Tree View Post
So if a priest has three parishioners:

One tells the priest the he thinks viewing pornography is okay, and that he is not going to view it as sinful.

One tell the priest that he thinks masturbating is okay, and that he is not going to view it as sinful.

One tell the priest that he thinks homosexuality is okay, and that he is not going to view it as sinful.

Is it okay for the priest to refuse communion the homosexual, but not the other two?
All three should not receive Communion. Really no priest has the right to refuse Communion to anyone unless he is certain that the person is not contrite with a sin that is known by the priest. A person could have just gone to confession and proclaimed a firm purpose of amendment thus allowing him/her the grace tio receive.

But I still hold, as I stated before that all three sins are equal when committed with full knowledge and full consent. So I hope that this answers your question.
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  #11  
Old May 23, '09, 5:55 pm
Primox Primox is offline
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

"A man sins the more grievously, according as he yields to a less impetuous temptation"
-Augustine (De Civ. Dei xiv, 12,15).

How easy or hard is it to resist the temptation of pornography?
How easy or hard is it to resist the temptation of masturbation?
How easy or hard is it to resist the temptation of homosexual acts?

It might be argued that since the impetuosity of a sin is a subjective experience, it is largely contingent on the person being tempted, although reason would suggest that it is easier to resist pornography over masturbation, and masturbation over a homosexual act. Nevertheless, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10).

When we offend God, the caliber of the sin is moot. It must be reconciled.
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  #12  
Old May 23, '09, 7:51 pm
Palm Tree Palm Tree is offline
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

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Originally Posted by twf View Post
It is an article of faith that homosexual acts are graver than the other two. ... It is a very common modern heresy to suggest that all grave sins are equally grave in God's eyes. ... Those who claim that all grave sins are equal need to read their catechism and use some common sense: ... And in fact, the Catechism CLEARLY TEACHES US that homosexuality is a graver sin than other sexual sins:
You are funny

Silly goose, if you want to know what the Catechism teaches on the gravity of the sexual sins, then you look at the part of Catechism on the 6th Commandment (CCC 2331 to CCC 2400).

There, the Church teaches us that the following are grave sins (I might have missed a couple):
--masturbation (CCC 2352, 2396)
--sex outside of marriage (CCC 2353, 2390, 2396)
--pornography (CCC 2354, 2396)
--prostitution (CCC 2355)
--rape (CCC 2356)
--homosexuality (CCC 2357, 2396)
--artificial insemination (CCC 2376)
--divorce (CCC 2384, 2385)
--incest (CCC 2388, 2356)
--adultery (CCC 2400)
--polygamy (CCC 2400)

Yes, it says that the rape of children by their parent or teacher is a graver sin than rape (CCC 2356)

It also points out that St. Paul stigmatizes incest as an especially grave offense (CCC 2388).

But it doesn't say anything about homosexuality being graver than the other grave sins.

For example:

CCC 2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

CCC 2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138

CCC 2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

CCC 2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young. 2390 ... The sexual act must take place exclusively within marriage. Outside of marriage it always constitutes a grave sin and excludes one from sacramental communion.

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

Last edited by Palm Tree; May 23, '09 at 8:05 pm.
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Old May 24, '09, 8:49 am
Palm Tree Palm Tree is offline
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palm Tree View Post
Yes, I meant homosexual acts, thanks for pointing that out.

Yeah, I've heard these arguments that homosexual acts and premarital sex are worse grave sins than the graves sins of masturbation and pornography...

1) the grave sins of homosexual acts and premarital sex involves two people, so you're helping another commit a grave sin. With the grave sins of masturbation and pornography, you are usually doing that by yourself, so you're not helping another commit a grave sin.

2) the graves sins of masturbation and pornography, done alone, can help someone from commiting the grave sins of homosexual acts and premartial sex with another
Yeah, see:

I just read this advise someone gave to a Catholic homosexual on here (quoted below). The advise makes it sound like it is not okay to occasionally submit to the grave sin of homosexual acts, but it is okay to occasionally submit to the grave sins of masturbation and pornography....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugz2007 View Post
Being realistic would be to acknowledge that he may not remain entirely chaste for his entire lifetime, that he may on occasion sinfully submit to the desires of the flesh and masturbate or seek out pornography.
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Old May 24, '09, 10:07 am
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centurionguard centurionguard is offline
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

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Originally Posted by Palm Tree View Post
You are funny

Silly goose, if you want to know what the Catechism teaches on the gravity of the sexual sins, then you look at the part of Catechism on the 6th Commandment (CCC 2331 to CCC 2400).

There, the Church teaches us that the following are grave sins (I might have missed a couple):
--masturbation (CCC 2352, 2396)
--sex outside of marriage (CCC 2353, 2390, 2396)
--pornography (CCC 2354, 2396)
--prostitution (CCC 2355)
--rape (CCC 2356)
--homosexuality (CCC 2357, 2396)
--artificial insemination (CCC 2376)
--divorce (CCC 2384, 2385)
--incest (CCC 2388, 2356)
--adultery (CCC 2400)
--polygamy (CCC 2400)

Yes, it says that the rape of children by their parent or teacher is a graver sin than rape (CCC 2356)

It also points out that St. Paul stigmatizes incest as an especially grave offense (CCC 2388).

But it doesn't say anything about homosexuality being graver than the other grave sins.

For example:

CCC 2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

CCC 2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138

CCC 2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

CCC 2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young. 2390 ... The sexual act must take place exclusively within marriage. Outside of marriage it always constitutes a grave sin and excludes one from sacramental communion.

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
As a means of using the conscious to measure in human primitive terms as to how serious the list of sins above are by dichotomizing them into categories grave to least grave just doesn't cut it for me. Particularly where humans are involved in measuring the serious moral implications of ALL SINS listed above. ALL these sins are very grave and mortally wound the soul. God does NOT put these sins into categories. All are equally serious. ("Jesus said; if you cause one of my little ones to fall astray...better you were born with a millstone around your neck") And cast into the eternal fire of hell.
Using the list of grave sins above I wonder how many have coerced the innocent to follow the sinful road of perdition ?

Quote:
Yes, it says that the rape of children by their parent or teacher is a graver sin than rape (CCC 2356)

It also points out that St. Paul stigmatizes incest as an especially grave offense (CCC 2388).
Maybe it's just me but, Catholic Rape and Incest Victims are least recognized by the Catholic Church at least when it comes to offering them a special safe haven to find people within the Church who truly care for their spiritual well being.
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Old May 24, '09, 2:09 pm
bugz2007 bugz2007 is offline
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Default Re: Of the grave sins of Homosexuality, Masturbation and Pornography -- Homosexuality is the worst, right?

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Originally Posted by Palm Tree View Post
Yeah, see:

I just read this advise someone gave to a Catholic homosexual on here (quoted below). The advise makes it sound like it is not okay to occasionally submit to the grave sin of homosexual acts, but it is okay to occasionally submit to the grave sins of masturbation and pornography....
I really don't like being quoted out of context. And I never said that masturbation and pornography are less grave, either. That statement of mine was in response to a man who thought that a young man was being realistic by planning to engage in homosexual acts in the future, because it was likely for it to happen. I was simply making the point that it is much easier to avoid the near occasion of the sins of fornication or homosexual acts than it is to avoid the near occasion of the sins of masturbation and pornography. Realistically, we all know we are going to sin eventually, therefore we do our best to avoid the occasions of it and limit our opportunity, because it's not okay to use that knowledge as justification to sin freely. I never said any of it was ever okay. Please refrain from quoting me in a setting where it is highly likely I won't know about it, instead of commenting in the original threadto find out what I really meant.
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