Atheism - Paradox

swplan76 · #1 May 29, '09, 9:12 am

Atheists claim that God doesn't exist. That they have found no proof of the existence of God. From what they can determine, God just isn't there.

So, how can they speak authoritatively on the subject.

They have no evidence from which to base their case.

The vast majority of people through out history have felt the need to describe something they experience as the supernatural - they have a desire to be connected with it. Many people have experiences of the divine which stand for them as personal proof that God is real.

The Bible says that all we have to do is look at nature and we will see that God is real.

...

I'd say, at best, an atheist must leave theological and/or religious discussions to people who believe in something and they can move forward in their discussion. People who believe in nothing have nothing - where is there to go from nothing?

I think a conversation with a devout atheist can only be a short one. "I don't believe," to which the believer responds, "I do and here's why..." to which the atheist responds, "I don't believe." ... "Ok?" "Ok."

I was talking with an atheist recently. He said, "I've been looking for many years for God, but I haven't found Him." I told him he should pray and ask God to reveal Himself. The atheist responded, "No, I've tried that and it doesn't work." He continued on and I realized that a bitterness was in him to the point that he no longer wants to see God. If God is there to be seen, this atheist has shut his eyes and has become uninterested.

The atheists I know are fairly closed minded - they believe that all we have is what we see - they are reductionist in their thinking.

Many Christians I know believe that there is more - they believe God is mysterious and every unfolding Himself to us, that we can know Him and that He leads us into the unknown in both our personal lives and into the future. In a sense, many Christians I know are open in a way that a devout atheist may never be.

The paradox of atheism is that atheism claims that they have no proof that God exists, their hands are empty, they see nothing to point us toward God and they claim this with authority, but authority cannot be claimed when a person has no proof.

At best they can say that they have doubt, but they are in no position to make conclusions... and if they do make conclusions, then the conversation has no where to go.

Thoughts?

Eucharisted · #2 May 29, '09, 9:59 am

Lack of evidence dose not mean something is evidently lacking. There must be evidence that something isn't true.

Aboveallbereal · #3 May 31, '09, 3:23 pm

Just on a human level I find atheists of my knowledge - that is true believers, God deniers -are often very depressed. The stark acceptance that man is an animal, chained to his impulses, that he is born of accidental copulation and dies unloved is a truly awful vista. I find it difficult to comprehend why proselytising for such an abject view of life excites so many irrespective of the truth or otherwise of their contentions.

This is purely personal and subjective comment.

Borknagar · #4 Jun 2, '09, 2:59 pm

Greetings from an Atheist! I actually consider myself an Agnostic with strong Atheist leanings. I don't believe that something that can't be proven or disproven such as the existence of a God or Gods can be met with a definite statement one way or the other. However for practical purposes I consider myself an Atheist since I believe the probability of a God or Gods existing to be so small that it's not worth giving any weight to any argument claiming a divinity exists unless substantial scientific evidence can be presented. Where an Agnostic would say I don't know if god exists, I would say he probably doesn't. The lack of hard evidence towards the existence of God is reason enough for me to not believe. Evidence disproving God to me is just silly since there was never any reason or evidence for me to believe in the first place. I try to be open minded on this subject and I feel definitive statements one way or the other on God's existence are inherently closed minded.

AnotherAtheist · #5 Jun 2, '09, 9:10 pm

I think you have it backwards. You are the one that claims the existence of god therefore the burden of proof is on you.

For example I say to you, “We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power.”

A logical response for you would be, “Prove it.”

Theists are the ones that can claim no authority because they have no proof. Atheists on the other hand have mountains of peer reviewed scientific data that stands as evidence that many of the beliefs espoused by most of the religions of the world are just plane wrong.

Madaglan · #6 Jun 2, '09, 9:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherAtheist

I think you have it backwards. You are the one that claims the existence of god therefore the burden of proof is on you.

For example I say to you, “We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power.”

A logical response for you would be, “Prove it.”

Theists are the ones that can claim no authority because they have no proof. Atheists on the other hand have mountains of peer reviewed scientific data that stands as evidence that many of the beliefs espoused by most of the religions of the world are just plane wrong.

The scientific studies on NDE's are especially interesting.

Neurological coping mechanisms in the process of dying?
Vision of an afterlife?
Hallucination?

swplan76 · #7 Jun 3, '09, 5:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherAtheist

I think you have it backwards. You are the one that claims the existence of god therefore the burden of proof is on you.

For example I say to you, “We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power.”

A logical response for you would be, “Prove it.”

Theists are the ones that can claim no authority because they have no proof. Atheists on the other hand have mountains of peer reviewed scientific data that stands as evidence that many of the beliefs espoused by most of the religions of the world are just plane wrong.

Its interesting how proof of God works out. The only way one can come to proof is if they do the rough work themselves. The chalkboard, or markerboard (if you are a more modern person) is inside you. Each of us has one and no one else can see it. On the marker board you collect data by which you make decisions. If I come to a revelation that God is, in fact real, I cannot show you my steps exactly. If I put my hand in a bucket of water on the spiritual plane, I could not show you, but I would know - it would serve as a personal proof to me that something happened that was real. Over time, as I journey with God, He continually leads me into various scenarios and experiences that I can only attribute to Him. My eyes are wide open - as I seek Him, He reveals Himself to me.

God doesn't work by this formula, but most of the time, He seems to: If we are seeking Him, He reveals Himself. If we aren't seeking Him, He won't force Himself on us. If I'm not working things out on that markerboard, or if I think it is a futile, ridiculous effort, then really my eyes are shut and I should not be surprised if I don't find anything.

For me, where it starts is from within me. Something within me cries out to know the maker of the universe. As I've looked around at this planet and the various things on it, I knew there was more. Some people either don't have that heart cry or they have quieted it and convinced themselves that they've never heard it. I find that my world increasingly makes sense as I find myself in closer relationship with God and when I drift (intentionally, or otherwise), chaos ensues.

Prayer, seeking God through scripture, worship, ... what I mentioned at the end of the previous paragraph might be called, living out the life He's called me to. As I make my life more and more about the things that matter to Him and live in a way that matters to Him, life makes sense. I believe Jesus presents the best way for humanity to live. All of these things end up in application/experience. "Taste and see that I am good." God wants us to KNOW and he encourages a "taste"-test (science?).

All these things come together as proof for me - personal proof. I can't show you my markerboard. You have to do the work yourself. You may not have the cry in your heart to do it.

Maybe your desire to know God is small, so you aren't going to put your heart into it. Maybe you enjoy being cynical, or (read 'The Great Divorce' by CS Lewis) maybe you have 1000 things that you have convinced yourself are better than being able to know the Maker of the universe.

What is amazing is that as we seek Him, He works in us and leads us into clarity/revelation. It may seem like you have a long way, but if you can find yourself in a moment where you really trust Him, He will do amazing things in you if you ask. That is my experience.

StrawberryJam · #8 Jun 3, '09, 6:59 am

You can not ask someone to prove to you the non existance of God. God does that all on his very own.

Borknagar · #9 Jun 3, '09, 8:18 am

swplan76 even if you don't realize it, you are basically saying you have to abandon reason in order to find God. When I abandoned reason I found the Flying Spaghetti Monster, he touched me with his noodley appendage and I was saved. Just because you think or believe something is there doesn't mean that it actually is. Claiming that proof of God exists in your head is a far cry from being able to show that proof to someone else, if you can't do that then proof it is not. Without proof that exists in reality any claim that God exists must be held with equal weight to any other claim of divinity. May the Flying Spaghetti Monster descend upon you and bless you with noodley appendage, then and only then will you be saved. Reject his sauce and you will be cast down into the sea of pirates where you will suffer for eternity (Noodle 2:14)

jam070406 · #10 Jun 3, '09, 8:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borknagar

swplan76 even if you don't realize it, you are basically saying you have to abandon reason in order to find God. When I abandoned reason I found the Flying Spaghetti Monster, he touched me with his noodley appendage and I was saved. Just because you think or believe something is there doesn't mean that it actually is. Claiming that proof of God exists in your head is a far cry from being able to show that proof to someone else, if you can't do that then proof it is not. Without proof that exists in reality any claim that God exists must be held with equal weight to any other claim of divinity. May the Flying Spaghetti Monster descend upon you and bless you with noodley appendage, then and only then will you be saved. Reject his sauce and you will be cast down into the sea of pirates where you will suffer for eternity (Noodle 2:14)

Just curious,
why do most atheists (yourself included) on these boards respond with either an attempted whimsical, insulting, arrogant, condecending, angry etc. response to questions or opinions? You claim that you opinions are based on reason but it is clear that your reason goes out the window and is replaced by emotive reponses. What are you so threatened by that you can't give a respectful or mature response?

btw, however cute you thought you were with the whole sphagetti monster cr*p , it made you lose all credibility. It was utterly stupid. Use that reason you claim to have before posting please.

josie L · #11 Jun 3, '09, 9:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherAtheist

I think you have it backwards. You are the one that claims the existence of god therefore the burden of proof is on you.

For example I say to you, “We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power.”

A logical response for you would be, “Prove it.”

Theists are the ones that can claim no authority because they have no proof. Atheists on the other hand have mountains of peer reviewed scientific data that stands as evidence that many of the beliefs espoused by most of the religions of the world are just plane wrong.

But that "flying spaghetti monster" entered space and time and was seen by hundreds when he resurrected from the dead. And not only was he seen but when he left those who saw him, they (his disciples and apostles) risked their lives to speak the truth. I think we can safely say that if you saw someone die and then a few days later they were walking the earth again that your eyes have beheld a miracle. A miracle so great that thousands were willing to be martyred for it rather than recant their belief. Jesus was who he claimed to be, the Son of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity. It is why the Church (Catholic) overcame the persecutions that it did from its very inception (for more than 300 years), and managed to bring to its knees a mighty empire without one act of violence.

P.S. Scientific data does not contradict the Bible (we Catholics believe in evolution, or haven't you heard) and Science can neither disprove/prove the existence of God. Tell me, how was life started here on earth, and what caused the big bang? If we take Occam's theory to heart, then the simplest explanation to this phenomena would be "God". "God is not dead" as Nietzsche said until Science can find the "material" answers to these questions.

StrawberryJam · #12 Jun 3, '09, 9:43 am

Hello, you said:

"God is not dead" as Nietzsche said until Science can find the "material" answers to these questions

Science does not claim to have answers to it all yet.
Religion does.

AnotherAtheist · #13 Jun 3, '09, 10:17 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by josie L

P.S. Scientific data does not contradict the Bible (we Catholics believe in evolution, or haven't you heard) and Science can neither disprove/prove the existence of God. Tell me, how was life started here on earth, and what caused the big bang? If we take Occam's theory to heart, then the simplest explanation to this phenomena would be "God". "God is not dead" as Nietzsche said until Science can find the "material" answers to these questions.

Well here are a couple of fallacies of the bible. There are many more examples such as these but I won’t bother with any more than these two.

The earth is billions not thousands of years old.

There has never been a great flood that covered the highest mountains to a depth of 20 feet.

swplan76 · #14 Jun 3, '09, 11:00 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borknagar

swplan76 even if you don't realize it, you are basically saying you have to abandon reason in order to find God. When I abandoned reason I found the Flying Spaghetti Monster, he touched me with his noodley appendage and I was saved. Just because you think or believe something is there doesn't mean that it actually is. Claiming that proof of God exists in your head is a far cry from being able to show that proof to someone else, if you can't do that then proof it is not. Without proof that exists in reality any claim that God exists must be held with equal weight to any other claim of divinity. May the Flying Spaghetti Monster descend upon you and bless you with noodley appendage, then and only then will you be saved. Reject his sauce and you will be cast down into the sea of pirates where you will suffer for eternity (Noodle 2:14)

If you are hearing me encourage the abandonment of reason, then you aren't hearing me properly.

I believe that each of us are called to do our own investigation and upon our individual findings, we are meant to come to logical conclusions.

I am not asking you to believe me. I am asking you to do your own work and come to your own conclusions. My experience is proof enough for me - that is as far as it is meant to extend.

I'll simply encourage you to reread my previous post with less cynical eyes.

Blessings,
SW

swplan76 · #15 Jun 3, '09, 11:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam

Hello, you said:

"God is not dead" as Nietzsche said until Science can find the "material" answers to these questions

Science does not claim to have answers to it all yet.
Religion does.

Some religion does claim to have all the answers, not all.

Christianity claims that God has all the answers to the questions we will face. Some of them He will share with us and other things will remain a mystery. Often times God provides answers to questions in ways that we cannot predict - at least that is my experience. Religion provides a way for people to have peace with some questions - it answers some and leaves the rest up to God.

As I said in my original post. It seems to me that Atheists are reductionist in their thinking - they think that all there is is what can be quantified. It seems to me that many religious people are spiritual and they believe in the mystery of God. They would describe themselves as OPEN to understanding who He is and what He might decide to reveal. They are available to the mystery. People who are reductionist in their thinking are not available to the mystery of God, or to learning anything new - very closed minded.

Some people are disenfranchised with the church because of problems with religion - may it be that a flawed church is not symptomatic of the non-existence of God. A flawed church may simply be symptomatic of humanity - people bring error with them and not all of us will choose to walk with God. So you might have a problem with a Christian who decides to call what you are saying "****" and then lump all of us in with them, using that person's attitude for another reason to believe that the church is a terrible thing, or that God doesn't exist...

...but does our imperfection have anything to do with the perfection of God? or His existence/non-existence?