Atheism - Paradox

[swplan76]

Originally Posted by Borknagar

your very quick to call the FSM theory **** even though it's no more or less credible than what comes out of the bible. Think about how you felt when you read my scripture... it's probably the same feeling atheists get when they hear bible quotes. As an Atheist with some FSM leanings I say how dare you call my noodle lord ****. You are the one who cast the first stone and passed judgment on me. I only ask that the Noodle lord be given equal validity to the Biblical lord since they are both equal in their improbability.

I think you have a valid point. It seems to me that people get upset about things they feel the need to control. I've heard about the FSM before (Pastafarians). From what I have come to understand, God is in control and He is leading people toward Him. All I am responsible to do is to be a light/sign that points people toward Him, not to strong arm them into salvation, or to insult or dominate them into submission/conformity. God is after "Servants who will become sons." Satan is after "Cattle who will become food" (CS Lewis, 'The Screwtape Letters'). I think these words can tell us a lot about how God's people should behave - the question to Christians is: who do you most represent, Cattle, or servants of the most high? How would non-believers categorize you? Do you make people glad to have encountered you, or do people wish they had never come across you? Do you remind people of heaven, or hell?

[swplan76]

Originally Posted by AnotherAtheist

Well here are a couple of fallacies of the bible. There are many more examples such as these but I won’t bother with any more than these two.

The earth is billions not thousands of years old.

There has never been a great flood that covered the highest mountains to a depth of 20 feet.

Your thoughts here are examples of reductionist thinking.

I think that people who have claimed that the earth is only 5000 some odd years old are also guilty of reductionist thinking.

One premise people always come to this argument with is that the earth has always existed under the conditions in which we now exist. There are tons of maybes that make that question seem irrelevant (known and unknown).

I'm not saying I agree with these ideas, but here is a logical response to your "fallacies."

If God were to create a rock and hand it to you, in order for it to have the consistency that it needs to have in order to maintain its density, size and shape, it might appear to be millions of years old, might it not?

If God were to create a rock that is a billion years old, when you carbon date it, it would say, "I am a billion years old" (If it could talk), but in reality, God made it 13 minutes ago (if you could carbon date a rock in 13 minutes).

_____

If God were to flood the entire world under 20 meters of water it would have a serious impact upon the planet. If God did flood the entire planet, afterward we would either be living in the aftermath of a very different world, or God would have to restructure the planet. Either way, how do we recognize the world as having been flooded if God decided to restructure or protect certain things.

In order to make the conclusions you have suggested, we have to come to the table with very reductionistic thinking and by now you know what I think of reductionistic thinking.

[dyluck]

Wow... this post is for us believers.

It seems in a sense that I have more respect for an Atheist (although deathly wrong) then I do most professing Christians/Catholics.
An Atheist lives their life exactly how they believe... Like there is no God.
Most believers say they believe in God yet live Monday to Sunday like there is no God.

We wonder why Atheists look at us and laugh and talk about noodle gods because most believers worship a made up god called self and not the Holy God of the bible.

I think this should be a wake up call to us! We need to pull together, get into the word and live what we believe and be an example to these people.

The bible says there is no excuse for Athiesm (Romans 1:18 on).

[dyluck]

jam070406, Borknagar, AnotherAthiest –

You know this as well as I do, that the one certainty in life is death. Even you whom have no God must submit to death. You appeal that there is no God and I say without the Grace of God you wouldn't be sitting in your chair today. The two realities is that either there is no God and I am a raving lunatic, or there is a God and you are in a massively underestimated mess.
You say there is no God, yet when you look at your own life, if we were to play a video of everything you thought, everything you said and the things you have done behind closed doors, you would run and hide for the rest of your life because of the shame of it would be unbearable.
Let’s say I am not a raving lunatic and there is a God, would a God that is so massive and perfect, speaking things into existence not be eternal?
Well that poses a problem. The problem is that you have disobeyed the Most High God and in that ultimately Justice must be served. Everything on this earth in our existence seems to be somewhat fine, possibly unfair, but in the end, you will still stand for what you have done, thought or otherwise before God. The bible says no one does good not one, so no matter what good you have done, it is still lawless and rot because it is not of God. Infact, and I'm sure you will admit, you are God hating and enjoy things considered evil.
Weather you believe it or not, you will stand before an eternal Holy God, you will suffer the consequences of an eternal holy God. Consequence under the fire of God’s wrath.
The same God where the heavens fall prostrate before Him and the elements melt like candles before a blast furnace.
Understand, God cannot forgive you. Not because He is limited by some force greater then himself, but because God is Just. Although God does love you, he must satisfy justice, otherwise his justice would be imperfect and he would not be a Holy God.
You must suffer the wrath of God for what you have done.

Let me give you an illustration. Let’s say you witnessed a man whom murdered your whole family. The sin against you and your family is so great that the anger drives you mad. Against all restraint for not carrying out the justice yourself, you call the police and they take the murder away.
This murder is before a judge and the judge says “I know he is guilty, but let this man go” You would stand up and yell “where is the justice in that?! I demand justice”. Why is it that people raise their fist at God for being just and yet have a double standard of injustice for regular judges?
That murderer deserves and must serve the full measure of his ransom, death, life in prison, whatever is worthy of that justice.
It took one sin for Mankind to be eternally separated from God, sin and the curse of death to be imputed to mankind. How many things even in the 10 commandments have you disobeyed today alone? Have you lusted in your mind about someone today? You just committed adultery. Did you do something to serve yourself? You just committed idolatry. Every one of us deserves an eternity in hell including you and me.

Now what if, the court ruling was stopped. A man stepped up and says “I will take this man’s ransom”. The justice would be served by one man or another man’s life. Weather or not the Murderer himself or the person who took the ransom paid the price, justice would be served. The murderer goes free and lives a new life and the person who took his place dies before the judge so that justice is served.

For God to forgive you, another must take your place. Another must satisfy the justice of God’s wrath on you for sinning against Him.
In His love, God sent his only Son to take your place. Jesus whom is much greater then all creation, one whom outweighs all majesty. Jesus the son of God whom came to this earth, lived a sinless life and by His virtue and merit, innocent before God paid the price for you on a cross so that you would be justified before a just and Holy God. Through Christ you can be transformed and reconciled unto God in the image of God in true righteousness and Holiness. How is this possible? Jesus says specifically Repent and Believe. Believe that Jesus is the divine son of God and that he died and resurrected so that you can be justified and saved from sin and the condemnation of Sin. Repent means to renounce / turn away from your sins. Throw yourself on Him! Cry out to Him until you either die and go to hell or come out converted and a new man.

That is all a mad man has to say!

[AnotherAtheist]

Originally Posted by dyluck

jam070406, Borknagar, AnotherAthiest –

That is all a mad man has to say!

Sounds like the ranting of a raving lunatic to me. If an innocent person pays the penalty for a crime committed by another and the guilty goes unpunished then there was no justice.

[Borknagar]

Death certainly is inevitable. I know my body will rot into the earth feeding bugs and plants. I don't know anyone who has died and then told me God exists. Honestly I really don't care if there is a God, many Gods, or no Gods. A few thousand years ago someone like you would be saying the same thing about Ra, Zeus or Apollo. The details might be different but it's still the same load of unsubstantiated claims or B.S. If you can't use reason and logic to convince someone your religion is right, you'll preach fire and brimstone to try and scare people into believing. I have seen past this scam for a long time now. I would rather suffer for eternity than spend it with a being as terrible and vile as the biblical God.

[swplan76]

Originally Posted by dyluck

jam070406, Borknagar, AnotherAthiest –

You know this as well as I do, that the one certainty in life is death. Even you whom have no God must submit to death. You appeal that there is no God and I say without the Grace of God you wouldn't be sitting in your chair today. The two realities is that either there is no God and I am a raving lunatic, or there is a God and you are in a massively underestimated mess.
You say there is no God, yet when you look at your own life, if we were to play a video of everything you thought, everything you said and the things you have done behind closed doors, you would run and hide for the rest of your life because of the shame of it would be unbearable.
...

For God to forgive you, another must take your place. Another must satisfy the justice of God’s wrath on you for sinning against Him.
In His love, God sent his only Son to take your place. Jesus whom is much greater then all creation, one whom outweighs all majesty. Jesus the son of God whom came to this earth, lived a sinless life and by His virtue and merit, innocent before God paid the price for you on a cross so that you would be justified before a just and Holy God. Through Christ you can be transformed and reconciled unto God in the image of God in true righteousness and Holiness. How is this possible? Jesus says specifically Repent and Believe. Believe that Jesus is the divine son of God and that he died and resurrected so that you can be justified and saved from sin and the condemnation of Sin. Repent means to renounce / turn away from your sins. Throw yourself on Him! Cry out to Him until you either die and go to hell or come out converted and a new man.

That is all a mad man has to say!

I've been teaching a course on world religions this past school year.

One basic thing about Christianity is that, in philosophy, Christianity teaches people to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies, to make sure that love is always evident, to cut away bitterness. We are supposed to wage war, but not as the world wages war. We are supposed to be light - to be the good thing in our community that draws people to call upon God. Early Christians brought liberation with them. Christianity is supposed to be spread by love - "They'll know we are Christians by our love."

Islam is a different story. Islam says, when the time is up, lay in ambush for nonbelievers, slay them everywhere you find them unless they pay the tax and convert to Islam. Islam is a religion that spread by oppressing others and putting the fear of Allah into them.

Many modern Christians teach that Christianity is the way, but they behave like Muslims. The vast majority of modern Christians do not engage violently with people over religion, but they like to throw around fear of Hell and damnation. Instead of being light and letting the goodness of God shine in us, we tend to wage war like the world does. God is present here with us and He is sorting things out - its not as if He is absent. Its His job to be the judge. He hasn't given us that responsibility. Is it right for a person to become a Christian because they are afraid of Hellfire? I tried that and it didn't work. It wasn't until years later, when I was really hungry for God, ready to surrender, that He revealed Himself to me.

Thoughts?

[AnotherAtheist]

Originally Posted by swplan76

I've been teaching a course on world religions this past school year.
…
Thoughts?

Several

Your religion evolved from previously existing religions and contains many beliefs and myths taken directly from the earlier religions.

Monotheism as practiced by Jews, Christians and Muslims probably coalesced 2500 to 2700 years ago. This is much later than is generally accepted by those that practice these religions.

If there is anything to religion in general and Christianity in particular the chances are that the Gnostics had it closer to the truth than the Catholic Church. That is the path to salvation is found within each individual not through some external source.

[swplan76]

Originally Posted by AnotherAtheist

Several

Your religion evolved from previously existing religions and contains many beliefs and myths taken directly from the earlier religions.

Monotheism as practiced by Jews, Christians and Muslims probably coalesced 2500 to 2700 years ago. This is much later than is generally accepted by those that practice these religions.

If there is anything to religion in general and Christianity in particular the chances are that the Gnostics had it closer to the truth than the Catholic Church. That is the path to salvation is found within each individual not through some external source.

Sounds more like Hinduism than Jesus

[AnotherAtheist]

Originally Posted by swplan76

Sounds more like Hinduism than Jesus

I’ve heard the hypothesis that Jesus spent the years between his childhood and 30 or so in the Far East where he was exposed to Hinduism and that it greatly influenced his turn the other cheek love thy neighbor philosophy.

[swplan76]

Originally Posted by AnotherAtheist

I’ve heard the hypothesis that Jesus spent the years between his childhood and 30 or so in the Far East where he was exposed to Hinduism and that it greatly influenced his turn the other cheek love thy neighbor philosophy.

Yeah,
I've heard that one. I've studied both religions quite thoroughly and do not see the connection. I'm surprised there isn't more violence in Hinduism from having read the Bagavadgita. Arjuna has an instinct for peace, but is coaxed out of it by Krishna (Hindu god). In 2008 in India there was a huge Hindu attack on Christians... I don't know how it got resolved (it maybe that it isn't quite resolved yet). Within Hinduism there is generally peace I think mostly because Hinduism is so vague and vast that it requires people to be flexible.

...besides, I've met Jesus - not a Hindu!

[josie L]

Originally Posted by AnotherAtheist

Well here are a couple of fallacies of the bible. There are many more examples such as these but I won’t bother with any more than these two.

The earth is billions not thousands of years old.

There has never been a great flood that covered the highest mountains to a depth of 20 feet.

The Bible doesn't state this (that the earth is 6000 yrs old), creationist do! As for the second example, not sure what you mean here?

[josie L]

Originally Posted by Borknagar

Death certainly is inevitable. I know my body will rot into the earth feeding bugs and plants. I don't know anyone who has died and then told me God exists. Honestly I really don't care if there is a God, many Gods, or no Gods. A few thousand years ago someone like you would be saying the same thing about Ra, Zeus or Apollo. The details might be different but it's still the same load of unsubstantiated claims or B.S. If you can't use reason and logic to convince someone your religion is right, you'll preach fire and brimstone to try and scare people into believing. I have seen past this scam for a long time now. I would rather suffer for eternity than spend it with a being as terrible and vile as the biblical God.

Be careful what you wish for! I'm sure Satan isn't any nicer than the "terrible and vile biblical God".

[josie L]

Originally Posted by AnotherAtheist

Several

Your religion evolved from previously existing religions and contains many beliefs and myths taken directly from the earlier religions.

Monotheism as practiced by Jews, Christians and Muslims probably coalesced 2500 to 2700 years ago. This is much later than is generally accepted by those that practice these religions.

If there is anything to religion in general and Christianity in particular the chances are that the Gnostics had it closer to the truth than the Catholic Church. That is the path to salvation is found within each individual not through some external source.

But it is the Catholic Church that has survived (the vagaries of time, with their doctrine intact) and not the Gnostics (guess there wasn't too many of them around in those days).

[AnAtheist]

Originally Posted by josie L

But it is the Catholic Church that has survived (the vagaries of time, with their doctrine intact) and not the Gnostics (guess there wasn't too many of them around in those days).

The Catholic Church was very active to reduce those numbers. Caedite eos, novit enim Dominus, qui sunt eis.