Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Moral Theology
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #31  
Old Jun 2, '09, 9:58 am
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
Forum Master
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2004
Posts: 12,750
Religion: Byzantine Ruthenian "Traditional" Catholic
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gardenswithkids View Post
We are discussing the situation of a young child. It is not the patient who requested the DNR--it is the parents or care-givers. Situations can arise where parents or care-givers decide to fore-go medical treatment their own convenience rather than out of compassion for the disabled person. (Please note that I don't intend to imply that was the situation in this particular case;however, I think we would be naive to ignore the possibility it can happen.)
This does not matter. The DNR is for the patient. The parents, as being the healthcare proxy can request a DNR and if the patient's physician agrees it is in force as if the patient requested it. It is not for us to judge why the DNR was put into place.

Quote:
Parents do not always have authority to decide to forego or stop medical treatment for their children. In another case recently an arrest warrent was issued for a mother who fled a state with her teenage son who had court orders to receive chemo-therapy. Different case, different situation, but it shows that sometimes the state wants to have a say in the medical treatment for children.
A DNR is in place and is in effect until a court of law says otherwise, such as in the case you mention. It is not for us to decide if a DNR is relevant or not.

Quote:
If parent and care-giver have the authority to decide DNR for a minor child, then they also have the authority to revoke the DNR. Schools have a sort-of substitute parental authority over the children in their care. The term "en loco parentis" meaning "instead of a parent" or "in place of a parent" is used in the US to refer to the authority schools have over children in their care. Notice also the term "alma-mater", used to refer to schools, includes the word "mater" which is Latin for mother. Because the schools do have some legal authority over children in their care, I believe that schools are within their rights to go against DNR orders for a minor child in their care.
Schools do not have the power to circumvent the parents' wishes. They are not the parent. When a parent is not there and there is no physcial DNR present then a school administer can request treatment but that is only until the proper caregiver, in this case a parent, can be contacted.

In this case a physical copy of the DNR was in place so the school could not change this.

Quote:
As a homeschooler, I am well aware that schools have some authority over the children in their care. I'm very reluctant to place my own young children under the authority of state schools where things can happen to my children that I disagree with. Fortunately in America, parents have the right to homeschool. I know of homeschoolers with special needs children who decided to homeschool for the sake of their children's health to limit exposure to infection and because of severe allergies. I realize that not every parents wants to homeschool, but if parents strongly disagree with some aspect of a school policy--such as a school's decison not to accept DNR orders, there are alternative forms of education. Perhaps another compromise that could be reached with parents who want DNR for their minor child is some type of educational help at home.
That may be but as a former paramedic I am well versed in DNRs, we were trained on them becuase of the legal implications involved.


The only people capable of countermanding a DNR are the patient if they are competent, which a minor child is not (legally speaking), the healthcare proxy (if one is in place), the legal guardian of a minor child (in this case the parents), or the next of kin if the patient is competent but unconscious.

The school does act as a temporary legal guardian but this is why a physical DNR order must be present as it shows the wishes of the patient (or those who make the medical decisions for the patient).

A court may also countermand a DNR order but this will only happen after a hearing and a new legal guardian or healthcare proxy is put into place.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old Jun 2, '09, 10:18 am
4Horsemen 4Horsemen is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2009
Posts: 948
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByzCath View Post
I do not agree with this statement. If a DNR is properly in place then it is not compassionate to go against it. It is the opposite of compassion to not follow a DNR order and to render care. I can see someone doing this to make themselves feel good but it is not the right thing to do.



As a former paramedic your thoughts on this are off.

A DNR is in force for all medical personnel if that person knows of its existence. A nurse is trained enough to know when a DNR is to be followed, it does not take a physician to judge this.

Also, a DNR is in effect everywhere. There is no compromise as has been suggested that it would not be in effect at school. A DNR would not be binding upon a teacher or other non-medical personnel but once a nurse or paramedic arrived and was informed of the DNR, unless that DNR is resciended by a family member, it is in effect and all extraordinary methods (or what ever is stated in the actual DNR) would cease under the supervision of the medical professional in charge of the scene (nurse or paramedic).

Yes it is tragic, but it is the law. While some might view this as immoral, it is not, that is if the DNR is properly put into place. If the DNR is properly used then it is immoral not to honor it.

My question is what was raised by others, how sick was this child and was school the right place for her to be.

One more thing, DNR's are not just for the hospital.
You said "when the DNR is properly put into place." What are the conditions for a DNR oder to be "properly into place", if you will?

I read an article from the American Academy of Pediatrics that there may be some difficulty for medical personel at schools to determine when to rescue a child in the face of an emergency. For example, although the child is severely ill with a DNR instruction, she could be merely choking on some food or mucous lodged in her throat. Note this paragraph from AAP website:

"While competent adults have legislated alternative means to refuse unwanted medical care, including advance directives, the options for children have remained less well defined. Only a few states explicitly authorize emergency medical services (EMS) to apply advance directives to children. Although lacking explicit authorization, existing statutes generally do not prohibit extensions of DNR orders for children to out-of-hospital situations. In contrast, the school officials may be worried that a DNR order could be misinterpreted by medically untrained staff, resulting in harm to a child, or they may worry that personnel would feel bound not to respond to an easily reversible condition, such as a mucous plug in a child with a tracheostomy. Administrators have concerns about their personnel responding to circumstances not anticipated by a DNR order, such as when a child chokes on food or is injured. Officials are understandably concerned that they and/or the school or school district could be held liable if personnel failed to act in a way that might have prevented an untoward death. "

You said the DNR orders follow the child everywhere. I would think that if the child went to school and back in a school bus, or let's say on a fieldtrip, there could be an emergency issue that would require medical personnel on hand. I suppose the state (taxpayer money) would have to pay for each and every possible emergency situation.

You wondered just how sick this second-grader was. She had already had an episode in the school when in 2007 she stopped breathing during a class. School nurses followed the DNR order, and she was not intubated--an "invasive procedure that Katie's parents thought would only prolong the inevitable," according to the article in the Chicago Tribune 5/28 about her death. The original article can be found as mentioned in the OP at www.chicagotribune.com/DNR.

In any case, my opinion is that we're opening up a can of worms when DRN orders go along with a child in school. Below is the website of AAP:


http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...878#Conclusion

God bless,
4Horsemen
__________________
"Lex orandi, lex credendi"

"In those respects the soul is unlike God, it is also unlike itself." (St. Bernard)

"Live in such a way that your life doesn't make sense if God does not exist."
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old Jun 2, '09, 11:24 am
Jesus_123 Jesus_123 is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: April 3, 2009
Posts: 2,876
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByzCath View Post

. . . . . .
A DNR is issued with the knowledge and authority of a physician
so it is binding upon all medical personnel.

(The blue coloration, centering of text, and the disagreement icons in the above quote are my edits . . .)

Gardenswithkids has made some excellent observations in the above post . . . and . . . again . . . this thread deals with . . . non-medical organizations . . . and compliance or non-compliance with DNR orders . . . medical organizations have quite different policies/protocols and responsibilities in such matters . . .

There is apparently . . . considerable leeway . . . in the laws in place regarding this matter which allows . . . non-medical organizations . . . such as schools, businesses, airlines, etc. . . . to implement a general doctrine known as "informed consent" . . .

Quote:
Informed consent is a legal condition whereby a person can be said to have given consent based upon a clear appreciation and understanding of the facts, implications and future consequences of an action. In order to give informed consent, the individual concerned must have adequate reasoning faculties and be in possession of all relevant facts at the time consent is given. - Wickipedia
The school referenced in the post you quoted from . . . having formulated a policy . . . as a non-medical organization . . . as to how they wish to conduct business in relation to medical DNR's . . . responsibly informs the parents/guardians re their individual policy not to honor or implement DNR's-DNI's . . . If the parents . . . having received such information from the school in question . . . decide to place their child in that school environment with full knowledge that the DNR-DNI's will not be honored or implemented should a medical crisis occur . . . then they are accepting. . . by their actions as the child's parents/guardians. . . and giving informed consent re the school's policy that their child's DNR-DNI is not in effect when the child is within the parameters of the school's authority . . . and the school nurse is bound by . . . her non-medical employer's . . . policies . . . if she has accepted employment under such circumstances as laid out in school policy relating to DNRs . . . below are some other quotes in relation to this matter . . .

Quote from the Princeton City School District, Cinncinati, Ohio’s A Parent’s Guide to Your Elementary School

http://www.princeton.k12.oh.us/pdf/E...y_Handbook.pdf

Quote:
DO NOT RESUSCITATE (DNR) ORDERS

There is no requirement in the law
that a school or school personnel comply with a DNR order. In addition, the uncertainties and risks associated with compliance with DNR orders make such compliance inappropriate for the schools. Accordingly, DNR orders shall not be accepted, honored, or followed by any employee of the Princeton City School District. School district employees who are health care providers, as part of their duties and in lieu of compliance with a DNR order, shall ... This shall not be construed as a denial of rights under section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 or the Individuals With Disabilities Education Improvement Act (IDEIA).
A quote from the New York Association of School Nurses website . . .

http://www.nysasn.org/legislation1.html

Quote:
Legislative News...

The legislative agenda is focused on providing input on laws that impact our students' health and school nursing practice. Our goals include achieving a mandate for school nurses in every school building. NYSASN participates in legislative education with lawmakers to voice our position that each school building should have a school nurse on site full-time. In June, our delegation will join NYSUT’s Healthcare Professionals Council advocating for a school nurse in every school, as well as nursing-related bills attending to safe staffing and ending mandatory overtime. …

DNR Bills:
A885: . . . healthcare practitioner shall not comply with DNR order pertaining to student where school board has adopted a policy not to honor such orders.
I do apologize for inadvertantly misleading you all re "Good Samaritan" law . . .

Quote:
Good Samaritan laws in the United States are laws or acts protecting from liability those who choose to aid others who are injured or ill. ... Such laws generally do not apply to medical professionals' or career emergency responders' on-the-job conduct ... - Wickipedia
. . . . . .

God bless the children!
. . . all for Jesus+
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old Jun 2, '09, 12:58 pm
Jesus_123 Jesus_123 is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: April 3, 2009
Posts: 2,876
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?



DIVINE MERCY PRAYERS

Eternal Father . . . I offer You the Body and Blood . . . Soul and Divinity . . . of Your dearly beloved Son . . . our Lord Jesus Christ . . . in atonement for our sins . . . and those of the whole world . . . For the sake of His sorrowful Passion . . . have mercy on us and on the whole world . . .

Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One,
have mercy on us and on the whole world . . .


In 1933, God gave St. Faustina a striking vision of His Mercy, Sister tells us:

Quote:
"I saw a great light, with God the Father in the midst of it. Between this light and the earth I saw Jesus nailed to the Cross and in such a way that God, wanting to look upon the earth, had to look through Our Lord's wounds and I understood that God blessed the earth for the sake of Jesus."
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old Jun 2, '09, 2:34 pm
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
Forum Master
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2004
Posts: 12,750
Religion: Byzantine Ruthenian "Traditional" Catholic
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

Ok, while a school might chose not to follow a DNR order the first responders and paramedics will do so when they arrive and take over the care of the patient.


A DNR order that is put in place is assumed to be proper. The only recourse is to challenge it in court.

It is not the job of emergency responders to judge the validity of a DNR order.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old Jun 3, '09, 10:18 am
Jesus_123 Jesus_123 is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: April 3, 2009
Posts: 2,876
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

The Lord led me to use all the . . . "food for thought" . . . we all have experienced in reflection on 4Horseman's above referenced topic . . . for the reflection I prepared today for our Benedictine Spirituality Forum . . . it seemed to fit right in with what we are studying right now . . . I wanted to thank you all for all the great and varied perspectives expressed . . . I learned volumes . . . !

Quote:

God's Chosen Plans . . . . . . for His Cherished Children

____________

A number of years back my home church . . . located in another state . . . as it grew in size . . . had begun purchasing houses and land around the church in expectation of expansion . . . and . . . very unexpectably . . . the Lord blessed our young family with an opportunity to rent one of the homes . . . one with a fantastic fireplace which marvelous extra blessing I just loved . . . and we moved in just a day or so before my youngest son was to enter the first grade . . . The day we moved in there came a knock at the side door and . . . lo and behold . . . the principal of our church's school had come calling . . . bringing with her . . . the plight . . . that one of her teachers had suddenly been unable to come on board . . . and offering me her job . . . I had completely surrendered and consecrated my life into the Lord's service when I was very young . . . just in the eighth grade . . . and singing had become the main gift in the Spirit God used for His Glory for many years thereafter . . . but . . . God's plans . . . for all of us . . . unfold . . . day-by-day-by-day . . . and this was a really . . . astonishing day . . . in the life of our little family . . .

I absolutely loved being a mother to my three wonderful young sons . . . . . . and it's equally delightful being a grandmother . . . . . . but to be successful as a mom . . . or a successful grandmom . . . or a successful teacher of children . . . the process of keeping family, home and school life . . . healthy . . . peaceful . . . and . . . harmonious . . . of necessity must involve both . . . love . . . and . . . discipline . . . being . . . firm . . . but . . . kind . . . Mine is a very gentled soul before my God . . .

Sacred Scripture teaches . . . "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." (Proverbs 22:6) . . . The training of a child can . . . at times . . . be very difficult on the . . . adult . . . involved as well as the child/children . . . whether in a family or a school environment . . and . . . sometimes . . . on the more serious occassions . . . one can experience the grieving of the whole group involved over its imperfections when the discipline of love is necessary to be carried out for one of its members . . . The Fourth Degree of Humility isn't easy by any stretch of the imagination . . . but it is absolutely necessary . . . and very much used of the Lord . . . in the training of all our souls . . . childrens and adults . . .
+ The fourth degree of humility is, that, if hard and distasteful things are commanded, nay, even though injuries are inflicted, he accept them with patience and even temper, and not grow weary or give up, but hold out, as the Scripture saith: "He that shall persevere unto the end shall be saved" (Mt 10:22). And again: "Let thy heart take courage, and wait thou for the Lord" (Ps 26[27]:14). ... - from The Holy Rule of St. Benedict - Chapter 7 - June 2nd Reflection
Keeping the faith . . .

God's sweetest blessings . . .
. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Mary+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+
http://forums.catholic.com/group.php?groupid=35

Last edited by Jesus_123; Jun 3, '09 at 10:37 am.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old Jun 3, '09, 5:50 pm
4Horsemen 4Horsemen is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2009
Posts: 948
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByzCath View Post
Ok, while a school might chose not to follow a DNR order the first responders and paramedics will do so when they arrive and take over the care of the patient.


A DNR order that is put in place is assumed to be proper. The only recourse is to challenge it in court.

It is not the job of emergency responders to judge the validity of a DNR order.
Being on an emergency response team, it is necessary and required of you to follow the DNR order, not to judge its validity. It was always my presumption that a DNR order is issued to patients who are in the dying process. From the article about Katie, it wasn't absolutely a certainty that she was in the dying process although she did go through it to some extent and would, most likely, have died without extraordinary measures. While some may say that she should be brought back indefinately, others will agree that she has been through traumatic suffering and that medical personnel were keeping her from the natural course of dying. My hope for children like Katie is that when God calls, we know how much of the treatment is necessary and how much is over the top, so to speak. Nonetheless, I would hope that these children would not have the misfortune of dying apart from their loved ones and before an audience of children in a classroom. Thank you for your perspective as a professional.

God bless,
4Horsemen
__________________
"Lex orandi, lex credendi"

"In those respects the soul is unlike God, it is also unlike itself." (St. Bernard)

"Live in such a way that your life doesn't make sense if God does not exist."
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old Jun 3, '09, 6:08 pm
4Horsemen 4Horsemen is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2009
Posts: 948
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus_123 View Post
The Lord led me to use all the . . . "food for thought" . . . we all have experienced in reflection on 4Horseman's above referenced topic . . . for the reflection I prepared today for our Benedictine Spirituality Forum . . . it seemed to fit right in with what we are studying right now . . . I wanted to thank you all for all the great and varied perspectives expressed . . . I learned volumes . . . !


http://forums.catholic.com/group.php?groupid=35
You certainly have a heart for the children! You've added much to the discussion with your colorful way of expressing your thoughts and emotions. Thank you for your reflection prepared for the Benedictine Spirituality Forum. I checked the link. I noticed a picture of the medal of St. Benedict which I wear with my scapular.

As for the topic of this thread, we may have discussed the issue inside out, but there could be others out there with different experiences as teachers or parents. The more we can learn and reflect on moral/ethical issues such as this, the better for society. We know that euthanasia is wrong as well as physician-assisted suicide which is now legal in two states, Oregon and Washington. We need to be on the lookout in our own states and work to protect human life at all stages. That includes the handicapped, like dear Katie and other "terminal" (aren't we all??? ) cases of children in school. I believe you made a reference to respect for life in another post. Let us continue to work and pray as you said (in Latin no less!!!).

God bless,
4Horsemen
__________________
"Lex orandi, lex credendi"

"In those respects the soul is unlike God, it is also unlike itself." (St. Bernard)

"Live in such a way that your life doesn't make sense if God does not exist."
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old Jun 4, '09, 10:07 am
Jea9 Jea9 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2007
Posts: 861
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Horsemen View Post
Being on an emergency response team, it is necessary and required of you to follow the DNR order, not to judge its validity. It was always my presumption that a DNR order is issued to patients who are in the dying process. From the article about Katie, it wasn't absolutely a certainty that she was in the dying process although she did go through it to some extent and would, most likely, have died without extraordinary measures. While some may say that she should be brought back indefinately, others will agree that she has been through traumatic suffering and that medical personnel were keeping her from the natural course of dying. My hope for children like Katie is that when God calls, we know how much of the treatment is necessary and how much is over the top, so to speak. Nonetheless, I would hope that these children would not have the misfortune of dying apart from their loved ones and before an audience of children in a classroom. Thank you for your perspective as a professional.

God bless,
4Horsemen
DNRs are also issued when the after-effects of 'saving the life' will make the person's life extremely unbearable (extraordinary means such as a ventilator). It could be that Katie's body was so frail that any attempt at chest compressions would break ribs in such a way that her already (possibly) deteriorated breathing muscles would be so injured that she would not be able to breathe on her own. I have no idea if this was the case with Katie. I know that many people live long, full lives with CP. There are also many people with CP where the diaphragm and other accessory breathing muscles become so spasmodic that they are unable to breathe without great trouble. Add a couple of broken ribs to that? No thank you.

I worked in a hospital where we had a lady that just came off of the ventilator (I'm in physical therapy) and she was extremely thin due to being anorexic her whole life. Her family and she decided that they could attempt resucitation but could not perform chest compressions because of her frailty. They decided that this would be too unbearable and potentially put her back on a ventilator and unable to breathe on her own. They did not want to be back in a situation where they had to decide whether or not to unplug the ventilator and see if she made it.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old Jun 4, '09, 10:11 am
cknick cknick is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2009
Posts: 187
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gardenswithkids View Post
I'm a little uncomfortable with it--especially given this child's age when the DNR order was given. (They wrote these orders when she was in second grade.) The article you posted did a nice job of pointing out the complexities of such situations. If any child is that sick, plus prone to infection and so close to death that the family and doctors think DNR order appropriate, I seriously question if school is right place for her. As the article mentions, DNR orders are more commonly found in hospitals and nursing homes, not schools.
Good point. Sometimes parents will use schools as respite, when the children should be home. It is justified by the mandate that that all children are required and entitled to receive an education, however, in this case, it wasn't appropriate.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old Jun 4, '09, 11:10 am
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
Forum Master
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2004
Posts: 12,750
Religion: Byzantine Ruthenian "Traditional" Catholic
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cknick View Post
Good point. Sometimes parents will use schools as respite, when the children should be home. It is justified by the mandate that that all children are required and entitled to receive an education, however, in this case, it wasn't appropriate.
I do not think we can judge the appropriateness of anything in this case as we do not have the full story.

It is easy to second guess and form judgments but until we live this case and/or are intimately involved we can not know enough to do so.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old Jun 4, '09, 6:40 pm
cknick cknick is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2009
Posts: 187
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

True. This case may be different, and perhaps school brought this child more joy than to be at home. It doesn't address the disregard for other children though. Obviously, if there was a DNR order, then there was a likelihood of neurological deterioration, affecting vital function again.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old Jun 4, '09, 6:47 pm
cknick cknick is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2009
Posts: 187
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by allhers View Post
Well I read the whole article and got this from it.

The DNR order goes everywhere with Katie, including her 2nd-grade classroom at Laremont School in Gages Lake. The school is part of the Special Education District of Lake County...

Beth Jones will be called first, then paramedics, who will be on standby at the school in
case Katie’s mother decides that she wants them to intervene. Meanwhile, Katie will be moved to a nurse’s office, shielding her from other students.

School nurses will be allowed to use suction to ease Katie’s breathing and give her oxygen with a mask. The child can be positioned in a way that makes it easier to breathe... (It also said that one of the teachers picked her up, remember? I am sure that
helped her breathing, just being adjusted to a different postion at the time.)

Apparently some think that every child with special needs should be
somewhere other than where they are. Years ago some experts thought that those with CP should all be in institutions and that they couldn't learn, grow up or walk or talk .

I think its sad that any child who wants to go to School, as the article pointed out about Katie, should be deprived of going because some people think that her death might be an inconvience to others. Do you think she should have just stayed home and waited to die?

The article shows how they were going to go out of their way to prevent it from happening
in front of the other children, what more do you want? CP effects everyone who has it differently and comes in different levels and stages. The article also stated that two other children had the same orders on their wheelchairs but doesn't say why. Perhaps they had other life-threatening issues, but still they wanted to be like other children and go to School and learn and be happy.

I think this part is the way to be....

“We’re not just standing by doing nothing,” said Susan Hodgkinson, nursing coordinator for the Special Education District of Lake County. “We’re providing supportive measures. But most importantly, we are there loving her.”

(my bold and underline.)
I was happy to go back and read that they did have a plan to shield the other students. Even the initial part of emergency response can be frightening for kids though.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old Jun 5, '09, 7:14 am
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
Forum Master
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2004
Posts: 12,750
Religion: Byzantine Ruthenian "Traditional" Catholic
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cknick View Post
I was happy to go back and read that they did have a plan to shield the other students. Even the initial part of emergency response can be frightening for kids though.
Yes but you can not really shield children from this. The death part you can and there was a plan in place to deal with that but as for the initial part of the emergency response, there are many things that can initiate that.

This is a teaching moment for the school and the parents of the children.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old Jun 5, '09, 3:36 pm
lovemysix lovemysix is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2007
Posts: 243
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

I am not familiar enough with this story to render a judgment as to whether I think a DNR was appropriate in this child's situation. Indeed, these are usually very complicated and difficult decisions to navigate through, and I feel nothing but compassion for her parents.

What I am a little surprised about, though, is the concern everybody has that other children might be exposed to death. While I agree there should be a plan in place to shield the children as much as possible (and it appears that there was) so as not to unnecessarily traumatize them, at the same time, I have no problem with my children being exposed to natural death. It happens. To everybody at some point. I think the fact that we have so removed death from our homes has made it much scarier and more traumatizing for everyone involved. It used to be that the vast majority of people died at home---old people, young people, mothers, fathers. And somehow humanity went on without suffering horrible effects from it. It's sad, tragic at times...........but death is part of the human condition and one that we all must face at some point.

As a parent of many children, I can honestly say I would have no problem with the concept of them attending class with a child who has a DNR order. Now, given how foreign experience death is to us in our current society, I would want to know that this situation existed in my child's classroom so that I could discuss possible scenarios with my child before such a thing happened.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am a nurse. I see death often, and I have strong feelings about the fact that we have taken the whole process and made it unnatural and institutionalized. I see it as part of the continuum of the human experience, and one that all of us should be prepared to deal with at some point. I have no problem talking about death and would not have a problem with my child being present at the death of a loved one, provided they had been prepared in advance to have an idea of what death actually looks like.

Just my .02.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Moral Theology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8048Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: georget
4829CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: Vim71
4295Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: James_OPL
4027OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: fencersmother
3813SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3377Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3184Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: libralion
3150Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
2962For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: libralion
2701Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 1:17 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2013, Catholic Answers.