A Woman Rides the Beast

heavenly_fire · #1 May 20, '04, 1:47 pm

My boyfriend, whom I love very much and want to convert to Catholicism, gave me A Woman Rides the Beast by Dave Hunt to read. Out of respect, I read it. It was full of so many lies that I have no idea how to begin refuting them. Are any of you familiar with Mr. Hunt's book? If so, could you please help me? I really want to marry my boyfriend some day, but at this point in time it would not be possible due to our differences of opinion. He is a Fundamentalist.

Apologia100 · #2 May 20, '04, 1:52 pm

Have him read "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" by Karl Keating. Fair is fair.

Domini Canis · #3 May 20, '04, 2:05 pm

If he is a fundamentalist, you might want to get him to give up his main basis of belief and hit the doctrine that his whole belief centers around: Sola Scriptura.

In that case let him read the big book, Not By Scripture Alone by Robert Sungenis. That should keep him off your case for awhile.

Miguel.

heavenly_fire · #4 May 20, '04, 2:07 pm

Karl's book is wonderful, and I wish that it would be enough to crack this case. However, this book has so many arguments that I can't find refutations for! I know that the reason I can't find them refuted is because they're so unscholarly as to be considered ridiculous by Catholics and even some Protestants. Therefore, they are dismissed. I would simply tell my boyfriend that they are ridiculous, but he is going to want something much more solid than that, as he believes the claims of this book. I know, these things seem so impossible to solve to me, also. We have had many heated debates in the past, and I sometimes don't know if he's the one for me because of it. We are truly in love, and I believe that love conquers all. I pray to the Lord for guidance, but so far I really don't even know if I'm meant to be with this man. I am entirely confused, and don't know where to turn.

heavenly_fire · #5 May 20, '04, 2:13 pm

I should add that he is entirely worried about it too, and it is a great source of stress in our relationship. He also worries because he doesn't know where I would go if I died, and he says he can't bear the thought that I would go to hell (because of my beliefs).

ridesawhitehors · #6 May 20, '04, 2:22 pm

heavenly fire ~

What I am going to say is going to sound harsh, but heck I'm going to say it....

Absolutly delay all plans on marraige till you get this ironed out. Agree on this with your boyfriend. He definatly is not the guy for you right now.

I know you said you love him, and that you two are in love. I respect that ~ But frankly, why would you want to marry someone who is NOT a catholic? This should be the first thing on your list - not emotional attachment.

Sorry to sound so big "sister"ly..... but I have been there.

The Barrister · #7 May 20, '04, 2:29 pm

I agree with Apologia100 - fair is fair! Have him read Keating's book, and follow it up with Rome, Sweet Home by Scott Hahn.

It is very typical to get the "Yeah, what about...., and what about.... and what about....!" in machine-gun style from fundies. It's not fair to you to get hit with 79 attacks in one sitting 'cause it's easy to blast out question after question - far more difficult to answer the questions and give them each the attention they deserve.

Tell him that if he wishes to discuss his problems with Catholicism that you'd be glad to, but only if he's willing to discuss it rationally, sanely, one at a time, point-by-point. Good luck, and God bless.

Marys daughter · #8 May 20, '04, 3:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ridesawhitehors

heavenly fire ~

What I am going to say is going to sound harsh, but heck I'm going to say it....

Absolutly delay all plans on marraige till you get this ironed out. Agree on this with your boyfriend. He definatly is not the guy for you right now.

I know you said you love him, and that you two are in love. I respect that ~ But frankly, why would you want to marry someone who is NOT a catholic? This should be the first thing on your list - not emotional attachment.

Sorry to sound so big "sister"ly..... but I have been there.

If your boyfriend is worried about you, imagine when he must raise his own children Catholic, if you were to marry.

This all needs to be ironed out before you even think about marrying. Good luck!

PhilVaz · #9 May 20, '04, 4:08 pm

<< gave me A Woman Rides the Beast by Dave Hunt to read >>

Just as the book was being published, Jimmy Akin wrote a reply in This Rock to the main premise in that book: that the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon" in Revelation. Once that premise falls, the whole book for the most part falls. See these articles if you haven't already

Hunting the Whore of Babylon

More on the Whore

Hunt relies primarily on the following sources (check his endnotes):

Hasler for his history of Vatican Council I
answered by Cuthbert Butler's scholarly history of same

von Dollinger for papal infallibility
answered by Dom John Chapman and B.C. Butler

Peter De Rosa's book Vicars of Christ for early papacy
also answered by Dom John Chapman

Guenter Lewey's book Catholic Church and Nazi Germany for his history of WWII, Pius XII, and Holocaust is answered by any number of recent books, especially Ron Rychlak who's been on EWTN and CA Live, check out these articles at EWTN

For the Inquisition(s), Hunt relies on various sources, especially Canon Lorente, an unreliable "anti-cleric", answered by Henry Kamen or Edward Peters books on the Inquisition(s)

On the bad popes, there are many books that are quite a bit more fair than Hunt (he relies on De Rosa here), such as "The Bad Popes" by Chamberlin, or the more recent "Saints and Sinners" by Duffy, but there's no need to whitewash the history since Jesus chose Judas to be an apostle, etc.

All his sources (with the exception of Lewy) are either "ex-priests", or anti-Catholic, or both. There is no source in the book that can be called scholarly or fair. On the topics Hunt discusses, the articles in either the old Catholic Encyclopedia (now online at NewAdvent.org) or the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) would have cleared up about 99% of the historical claims. The doctrinal claims were answered by Keating in Catholicism and Fundamentalism long ago. Dave Armstrong's Biblical Defense of Catholicism (and his web site) answer the remaining 1%.

Give him Armstrong's book.

Here are my two articles answering two big false claims in the book: that the Waldenses were "early evangelicals", and the Spanish Inquisition supposedly tortured and killed "millions"

Who Were the Waldenses?

Dave Hunt and the Spanish Inquisition

That pretty much covers Hunt's now 10 year old book.

Phil P

SDA2RC · #10 May 20, '04, 7:53 pm

Heavenly Fire:

Sure we will help you!! Lets start at your first concern.. Do you have a specific question to start off with??

Brandon

beng · #11 May 20, '04, 8:27 pm

Listen to PhilVaz

The Barrister · #12 May 20, '04, 8:32 pm

Kudos to PhilVaz - that was a terrific post!

srkbdk · #13 May 20, '04, 8:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavenly_fire

Karl's book is wonderful, and I wish that it would be enough to crack this case. However, this book has so many arguments that I can't find refutations for! I know that the reason I can't find them refuted is because they're so unscholarly as to be considered ridiculous by Catholics and even some Protestants. Therefore, they are dismissed. I would simply tell my boyfriend that they are ridiculous, but he is going to want something much more solid than that, as he believes the claims of this book. I know, these things seem so impossible to solve to me, also. We have had many heated debates in the past, and I sometimes don't know if he's the one for me because of it. We are truly in love, and I believe that love conquers all. I pray to the Lord for guidance, but so far I really don't even know if I'm meant to be with this man. I am entirely confused, and don't know where to turn.

I am unsure from your response if he has read Karl's book??

If not he still needs to it is a great read, but there are a few other things to be done first.

1. I hope you have a Priest that is in line with the Holy Father, and if so ask him for some time.

2. It is ok to marry a non Catholic if that is God's will the hard part is determining that. A suggestion put the marriage on hold and spend one month praying the Rosary every day asking Mary to help you understand God's will for your life.

3. Get someone to help you talk with this young man on this subject, it may bring some clairty to the issue for both of you.

4. Ask him to list for you the reasons he is so sure of where he is going, and them post them on this site and you will get some ideas real quick.

God Bless and Slow down if it is his will it will be.

Lisa B · #14 May 20, '04, 10:11 pm

I have a similar problem, yet all together different. My husband is muslim. Before we had children I some how let myself live in a self induced denial that it wouldn't effect our children and that we would deal with it "when the time comes". I love my family with all my heart but my advice is to pray the rosary daily until a clear answer is given to you-May God bless both of you.

chosunhoon · #15 May 20, '04, 11:08 pm

I guess this is a bit off topic, but since the title of the book is 'a woman who ride the beast', I figured I might as well address the common claim that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon.

I made a page of notes that address this. I obviously have a different interpretation than other Catholics, but it's certainly not heretical. More importantly, I think it effectively questions even the possibility of the whore being the Catholic Church:

Who is the whore of Babylon in Revelation?

Moreover, it's entirely based on the Bible. I highly recommend reading all the scriptural references, otherwise the arguments I've made don't speak as loudly.

I hope it's useful at the very least.