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Old Jun 7, '09, 12:45 pm
luciasclay luciasclay is offline
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Default Isaiah and the Coal

Today in the Lutheran Missouri Synod parish I was attending the following text was part of their readings.
5 And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!" 6 Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven."
As I pondered that I was struck by the fact that we have purification of the sins of a righteous man by fire. The removal of guilt and sins. I had the night before been comparing the parallels of Wisdom 3 and 1 Peter on purification.

From a Catholic perspective am I reading more into the scene with Isaiah than is there. Protestants who reject the whole idea of needing any purification I know reject this reading. I am here to learn what Catholics think.

Thanks!
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So go easy on me and assume that I have probably misspoken and gently correct in love instead of the flames of the net.
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  #2  
Old Jun 7, '09, 9:44 pm
Danno2281 Danno2281 is offline
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Default Re: Isaiah and the Coal

Quote:
Originally Posted by luciasclay View Post
Today in the Lutheran Missouri Synod parish I was attending the following text was part of their readings.
5 And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!" 6 Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven."
As I pondered that I was struck by the fact that we have purification of the sins of a righteous man by fire. The removal of guilt and sins. I had the night before been comparing the parallels of Wisdom 3 and 1 Peter on purification.

From a Catholic perspective am I reading more into the scene with Isaiah than is there. Protestants who reject the whole idea of needing any purification I know reject this reading. I am here to learn what Catholics think.

Thanks!
If you find that a scripture reading makes you aware of some truth, thank the Holy Spiit for His guidance, but it would be difficult to use this citation as a "proof text" for those who reject the need for purification after the Redemptive Act of Christ. Just as an aside, in the old form, the priest would say before the gospel reading< "Cleanse my heart and my lips, Almighty God as You cleansed the lips of the prophet Isaiah with a burning coal. in Your mercy, cleanse me so that I may worthily proclaim Your holy gospel."
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Old Jun 10, '09, 1:26 pm
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: Isaiah and the Coal

Quote:
Originally Posted by luciasclay
Today in the Lutheran Missouri Synod parish I was attending the following text was part of their readings.
5 And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!" 6 Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven."
As I pondered that I was struck by the fact that we have purification of the sins of a righteous man by fire. The removal of guilt and sins. I had the night before been comparing the parallels of Wisdom 3 and 1 Peter on purification.

From a Catholic perspective am I reading more into the scene with Isaiah than is there. Protestants who reject the whole idea of needing any purification I know reject this reading. I am here to learn what Catholics think.

Thanks!
This deals with the Catholic Dogma of Purgatory: "hell like" purification with ONE major difference. Hell is forever; Purgatory is a necessary "steping stone" to heaven for many of us!

[QUOT]E=lovelylife22;5085187]How Should I interpet "prayers of the dead" in light of the book 2 Macaabees?[/quote]

God Bless you friend.

You listened well and heard correctly.

2 Mac. 12; 39-45 perhaps has a clearer understanding if read along with: 1 Cor. 3: 15 and Mt. 5:26.

Each of these verses has to do with the effects of sin, which should be understood in light of 1 John verses 13-17, and John 20: verses 23-24.

Three things ten become evident.

Al "men" are sinners

There are two categories of sin: [sin is saying NO to God] lesser sin and "Mortal sin" which is so serious that it "mortally" kills for a time our personal relationship with God, until we "repent and convert," beg forgiveness and Confess our sins.

Because there ARE two categories of sin, and because it is the very Divine nature of God to be both Just and Fair, God cannot, will not and does not treat everyone the same. Such is the unchangeable Nature of God.

For example: You steal $50.00 from me and I find out. You really did not need the money, nor do I, but I insist that you give it back. You refuse. I kill you, and then in my escape, am killed myself.

Now we both have unrepented and unconfessed sin on our souls. Yours minor, mine Mortal. Can, will God in Justice treat us the same/ NO! He CANNOT!

So you die, yet you are clearly "not perfected" sufficiently to be in the Presence of an ALL PERFECT God so what happens to you>

Me, on the other hand, is a no brainier, I just sent myself to Hell for all eternity.

What happens to you is the Catholic Dogma of Purgatory; a place to be made more perfect, so that eventually you can get to heaven.

It is because of the very Nature of God, who has no choice but to be "fair and Just" that "purgatory exist.

Many die with unrepented, unconfessed "lesser" sins and MUST be purified in order and before they can get to heaven.

This is where "prayers" for the dead come into play. God, who is Perfect Love, permits us to offer prayers and sacrifices for the dead in order to expedite their trip to heaven. Conversely, He also allows them to pray for us, again as a manifestation of His Perfect Love.

Love and prayers,
Pat
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