Jesus Was the Jewish Messiah?

AJTheMan · #1 Jun 9, '09, 12:04 pm

Common Christian history will tell you that, at it's very core, Christian belief started around the idea that Jesus was the Jewish messiah. So I wanted to review this idea and see what you guys think.

Christians claim that Jesus was the messiah but it appears that he forgot to complete some of the prophecies that would actually make him the messiah...

The Incomplete Prophecies: Why Jesus Cannot be the Jewish Messiah

1. The Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)

As it looks right now, the Jewish Sanhedrin has still not been reestablished by Jesus. I wonder why God would have made this prophecy only for Jesus, a messiah claimant, to completely ignore it...

2.The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)

This passage was actually almost completed by Jesus. Through all three abrahamic religions, about five billion people worship the God of Israel; either through Judaism, Islam, or Christianity.

The problem here is that we have a population of six billion, meaning that we still have Non-believers, Hindus, Animists, Vodoouns, and the such.

God included this passage into his scripture so that people would know what the messiah would be like...to identify him. I wonder why Jesus couldn't fulfill what God had prophesied here.

3.Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

One must look no further than North Korea to look at how Jesus did not complete God's prophecy. Germany, Spain, Italy, Russia, Libya...and many more -- all had tyrants after Jesus died.

4. All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Some of this came true. It is true that the Israeli state has been created and is burgeoning with people. This can't excuse the fact, however, that many countries have high populations of Jews throughout their lands. Especially America. There are close to 20 million Jews in America, alone.

I wonder why God would include this into his scripture and yet Jesus decided not to fulfill it.

5.Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

People still die. God said that once the messiah came, people would not die. I wonder why Jesus could not fulfill this.

6. There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

God said that this is one of the things that his messiah would do. Yet Jesus did not. People still die of hunger and illness all across the world. If Jesus were messiah, he would have fulfilled this prophecy. That's what God said, not me.

7. The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

One must look no further than the decades of antisemitism and persecution of Jews to know that this never came true.

8.Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)

Most of the Arab world still hates the Jews and recognizes no wrong doing. The Palestinians recognized no wrongdoing after taking Jewish land.

God said the messiah would do this.

9.The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

Most nations do not look towards the Jews when seeking spiritual guidance. In fact, the only nation that currently does that is Israel.

God said that the messiah would accomplish this.

10.The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

We haven't even found Sodom and Gamorrah, let alone restored them.

God said that the messiah would do this.

11. Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

Jesus did not do this or was unable to do this.

God said the messiah would do this.

12. The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40)

If I remember correctly, during Jesus' time the temple hadn't been destroyed.

So I wonder how he could have been messiah if he was alive when the temple wasn't even destroyed -- to be rebuilt by God's messiah.

13. Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)

Jews still have to study the Torah if they want to know it.

God said the messiah would do this. Why didn't Jesus?
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So, I really wonder why God said that the messiah would do this and yet Jesus did none of this.

I do recognize that Jesus may have fulfilled some of the prophecy but you would figure that Jesus, if he were messiah, would at least have the knowledge to finish God's prophecies so that people could truly know that he was the messiah.

I'm not the one who brings this to issue. This is the scripture speaking for it's self. And when God says that his messiah will do A, B, and C....Well I'd expect that the messiah would do A, B, and C....

God was pretty good at prophecies...I'd trust him over Jesus if Jesus couldn't even fulfill these things that God said his messiah would...

Newbie2 · #2 Jun 9, '09, 12:14 pm

It's ain't over 'till the fat lady sings...these things you mentioned, they have not been fulfilled yet, and perhaps will not be fulfilled as we expect.

AJTheMan · #3 Jun 9, '09, 12:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newbie2

It's ain't over 'till the fat lady sings...these things you mentioned, they have not been fulfilled yet, and perhaps will not be fulfilled as we expect.

Exactly. Which disqualifies Jesus from being messiah, yeah?

aileron · #4 Jun 9, '09, 12:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newbie2

It's ain't over 'till the fat lady sings...these things you mentioned, they have not been fulfilled yet, and perhaps will not be fulfilled as we expect.

Using this rationalization, all predictions about the future are true.

JAGCath28 · #5 Jun 9, '09, 12:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJTheMan

So, I really wonder why God said that the messiah would do this and yet Jesus did none of this.

I do recognize that Jesus may have fulfilled some of the prophecy but you would figure that Jesus, if he were messiah, would at least have the knowledge to finish God's prophecies so that people could truly know that he was the messiah.

I'm not the one who brings this to issue. This is the scripture speaking for it's self. And when God says that his messiah will do A, B, and C....Well I'd expect that the messiah would do A, B, and C....

God was pretty good at prophecies...I'd trust him over Jesus if Jesus couldn't even fulfill these things that God said his messiah would...

AJ,

Thank you for your insightful post. I am hoping that someone with more knowledge than myself can answer your inquiry. However, I figured I would throw out what my initial thoughts were when reading those Scripture references with your questions.

As you mentioned, Jesus did fulfill many of the prophecies. Those were the prophecies of His first coming. We are taught that He came to redeem us in order to give us a chance of salvation where we can spend eternity with God. It is my understanding that when the prophecies you mention are fulfilled, the world as we know it has ended. Those are end time prophecies. How could we even be able to have that opportunity of salvation if the "end" happens at the beginning?

Also, those prophecies coincide with the New Testament prophecies which shows you that God was trying to prepare the world back then for the final days just like we are being prepared now.

Peace and love,

Jessica

Ghosty · #6 Jun 9, '09, 12:50 pm

There are many things wrong with such lists, and I'll go over it point by point. One of the key points that comes up again and again is that these expectations of the Messiah don't apply to Jesus' own time, but came afterwards as the Jews were scattered across the globe. This should become fairly obvious as I go over the points.

Quote:

1. The Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)

As it looks right now, the Jewish Sanhedrin has still not been reestablished by Jesus. I wonder why God would have made this prophecy only for Jesus, a messiah claimant, to completely ignore it...

The Sanhedrin couldn't be restored by Christ, because the Sanhedrin wasn't abolished until well AFTER Christ. This is an example of a "prophecy" that came to be understood in such a way only AFTER the time of Christ. Obviously no one can restore what hasn't been abolished.

Remember, Isaiah was writing before the Babylonian Exile, so his prophecy is most likely referring to the restoration of the Sanhedrin after the return of the people of Israel from Babylon in the 6th century BC. That is how the prophecy would have been understood in the time of Christ, because the Sanhedrin had indeed been restored once, after Isaiah's prophecy.

Quote:

2.The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)

I would argue that this actually is completed by Christ. The Catholic Church has membership from all groups of people. The prophecy itself doesn't say that everyone, numerically speaking, will worship God.

Quote:

3.Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

The passage in question actually says nothing about evil being abolished, only that it will be judged by harshly by God. This is an ongoing thing, not a one time event. It will only be completed at the Final Judgement, which the prophecy doesn't speak of.

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4. All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

See my response to point #1. Isaiah was writing before the Babylonian Exile, when the Kingdom of Judah was taken captive by Babylon. Centuries later they were returned to the Land of Israel. In Christ's time this prophecy was already understood as having been completed, only after the second exile (post-Messiah) did Jews start to view it as an upcoming prophecy.

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5.Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

Christ did actually abolish death as we know it. We die mortal deaths, but spiritual death has been swallowed up, and even physical death has been changed for those who keep the Faith. Hence we believe in Saints (still-living souls) and the Resurrection of the Dead. Prophecy accomplished, but with more to come in the Last Days.

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6. There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

The passage actually doesn't say this. It simply says that the tears will be wiped away. This is fulfilled in the joy that Christians take in our toils, and our happy response to persecution and martyrdom (just look at the early Catholic martyrs, who went singing to their executions).

continued....

Ghosty · #7 Jun 9, '09, 12:50 pm

Quote:

7. The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

The Jewish people who accept the New Covenant of God have experienced this prophecy. We don't believe that this prophecy is speaking of people who are simply biologically Jewish, but rather those who embrace the Faith of God. This means accepting the Messiah who has come, something which the "Jewish religion" doesn't do. Zion is fulfilled, but not all biological Jews are a part of Zion; many have rejected it.

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8.Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)

This prophecy actually refers directly to the Messiah, not to Israel as a whole, especially 53:5. This is another example of a post-Christ Jewish reading of the prophecy in question, whereas it has a very obvious answer in actual Christian teaching, and the first Christians (who were all Jews) understood this prophecy as having been fulfilled.

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9.The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

Fulfilled in the Catholic Church, as stated in #2. Modern Jews, not believing in Jesus Christ, still wait for this prophecy to occur, yet people from every nation have already embraced the Jewish Messiah. Prophecy fulfilled.

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10.The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Ezekiel was writing during the Babylonian captivity; the prophecy was fulfilled with the return of the Kingdom of Judah. Once again, no one in Jesus time would have viewed this prophecy as "still pending".

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11. Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

If you read the passages surrounding this one, you'll see that it's referring to the people of Israel taking from the Babylonians the weapons they brought to destroy her. It doesn't mention anything about weapons of war disappearing forever. Again, this was fulfilled long before the time of Jesus.

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12. The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40)

The First Temple was destroyed when Israel was conquered by Babylon, and was rebuilt when the Jews returned. Ezekiel was writing during the Exile, and the prophecy was fulfilled before Christ. No Jews during Christ's time expected the Second Temple to be destroyed to make way for a "second fulfillment" of this prophecy. Only post-Christian Jews look towards the rebuilding of the Temple, disregarding that this prophecy was fulfilled already.

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13. Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)

Far too literal of a reading. The Torah is written on the hearts of all through our conscience. Remember, the entire Torah is summed up in two rules: Love the Lord your God with all your mind and heart, and love others as you love yourself. That is not a Christian teaching only, but is actually a pre-Christian Jewish teaching. It is fulfilled in the Grace of the Holy Spirit, which places this law in the hearts of everyone who is Baptized.

Again, most of these "prophecies" came well after Christ, and were not believed by the people of His time. They are new interpretations by modern Jews to make sense of their current circumstances.

Peace and God bless!

AJTheMan · #8 Jun 9, '09, 1:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAGCath28

AJ,

Thank you for your insightful post. I am hoping that someone with more knowledge than myself can answer your inquiry. However, I figured I would throw out what my initial thoughts were when reading those Scripture references with your questions.

As you mentioned, Jesus did fulfill many of the prophecies. Those were the prophecies of His first coming. We are taught that He came to redeem us in order to give us a chance of salvation where we can spend eternity with God. It is my understanding that when the prophecies you mention are fulfilled, the world as we know it has ended. Those are end time prophecies. How could we even be able to have that opportunity of salvation if the "end" happens at the beginning?

Also, those prophecies coincide with the New Testament prophecies which shows you that God was trying to prepare the world back then for the final days just like we are being prepared now.

Peace and love,

Jessica

Thanks for the answer, Jessica

The fact that many think Jesus will fulfill all of this during his second coming has no bearing on his "first" coming. As it stands now, Jesus came, completed some of the prophecies, but left many unfulfilled. The idea of a "second coming" is a foreign concept to the Jewish Old Testament. The OT doesn't mention that the messiah will come twice -- he will come once, complete all of the prophecies within his reign, and die.

The idea of a second coming, some say, was created out of the disappointment by early Christians that he was unable to do all that is said in the OT. Indeed, this could very well be the case. Jews affirm that the idea of their messiah coming a second time has very little biblical basis.

Jesus also did what God warned against in Deuteronomy 13: He added to God's word of the OT. God said that no one was to do this, not even a prophet. Indeed, someone who claimed to be a prophet and did this was to be considered a false prophet.

AJTheMan · #9 Jun 9, '09, 1:07 pm

To Ghosty:

Thank you so much for the lengthy answer. I will definitely ponder on it. I try not to respond too hastily on matters such as this without thinking them through, studying them, and reviewing...

Let me ask though -- Are you suggesting that the modern Jewish understanding of Scripture came about so that it would explicitly deny the Messiah of Jesus?

I also have many more questions about Jesus but I'm sure that it will all come in good time.

JAGCath28 · #10 Jun 9, '09, 1:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJTheMan

Thanks for the answer, Jessica

The fact that many think Jesus will fulfill all of this during his second coming has no bearing on his "first" coming. As it stands now, Jesus came, completed some of the prophecies, but left many unfulfilled. The idea of a "second coming" is a foreign concept to the Jewish Old Testament. The OT doesn't mention that the messiah will come twice -- he will come once, complete all of the prophecies within his reign, and die.

The idea of a second coming, some say, was created out of the disappointment by early Christians that he was unable to do all that is said in the OT. Indeed, this could very well be the case. Jews affirm that the idea of their messiah coming a second time has very little biblical basis.

Jesus also did what God warned against in Deuteronomy 13: He added to God's word of the OT. God said that no one was to do this, not even a prophet. Indeed, someone who claimed to be a prophet and did this was to be considered a false prophet.

Ghosty's response was much better than mine. Good posts!!!

However, I would like to add that my understanding of the Jewish belief of the Messiah in the OT times was that the Messiah was going to be an actual king who would reign like King David, etc. This is why King Herod ordered all of the male children to be killed when the wisemen came to see him. When he heard that the prophecy of the Messiah was being fulfilled, he feared for his throne. They didn't (or perhaps couldn't) understand that the Messiah wasn't there to fulfill an earthly presence of reigning.

Also, when reading the verses that you reference, I don't see how they could be directly related to the Messiah. It could be my little understanding of in depth scripture, but when reading those in both the Douay-Rheims and NAB, nothing jumps out and says...this is talking about the Messiah.

This is an interesting sight that shows many many many of the prophesies that were fulfilled through Jesus.

Best wishes in your journey!

Peace and love,

Jessica

JAGCath28 · #11 Jun 9, '09, 1:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJTheMan

Jesus also did what God warned against in Deuteronomy 13: He added to God's word of the OT. God said that no one was to do this, not even a prophet. Indeed, someone who claimed to be a prophet and did this was to be considered a false prophet.

This is a very interesting point that you make. Deuteronomy was the last of the Pentateuch given by Moses. If you take this as literal as your assessment, then the OT should consist only of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Instead it includes many other books with histories, prophecies, and lessons that the Jews and Christians were given by God through inspiration. If God ordained that prophets such as Isaiah's words could be "added" to the Bible, then wouldn't it be OK if His Own Son's words were included?

Plus, if you look at what Moses is actually saying here....

Quote:

1
"Every command that I enjoin on you, you shall be careful to observe, neither adding to it nor subtracting from it.
2
"If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer who promises you a sign or wonder,
3
urging you to follow other gods, whom you have not known, and to serve them: even though the sign or wonder he has foretold you comes to pass,
4
pay no attention to the words of that prophet or that dreamer; for the LORD, your God, is testing you to learn whether you really love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Jesus never urged anyone to turn from God or to follow other gods. He also never changed the law/commandments which were given to Moses.

Quote:

Matthew 5:
17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
18
Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.
19
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

AJTheMan · #12 Jun 9, '09, 1:56 pm

Thank you so much, Jessica

I have so many unanswered questions about Christianity. Thanks for the answers.

DaveBj · #13 Jun 9, '09, 4:02 pm

Ghosty's answer was very good. But without answering the OP's points individually, here is the answer from the Source's mouth:

Quote:

John 4:25-26: The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." (NKJV)

DaveBj

Ghosty · #14 Jun 9, '09, 4:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJTheMan

To Ghosty:

Thank you so much for the lengthy answer. I will definitely ponder on it. I try not to respond too hastily on matters such as this without thinking them through, studying them, and reviewing...

Let me ask though -- Are you suggesting that the modern Jewish understanding of Scripture came about so that it would explicitly deny the Messiah of Jesus?

I also have many more questions about Jesus but I'm sure that it will all come in good time.

I'm glad my response helps a bit, and I'll keep trying to answer whatever you come up with. Just as an aside, I became Catholic after seriously pondering Orthodox Judaism; it was Orthodox Judaism that convinced me to drop my atheism, and as I was studying it I became more and more convinced of Catholicism. So all of these issues are actually important to me, and are things I had to face in accepting Christianity over modern Judaism.

As to your question, I don't think all of it is designed to deny Jesus as the Messiah, but some of it certainly is. Mostly I think it's a re-imagining of ancient prophecies to fit the post-Temple (and post-Christian) experience of the Jews who did not accept Jesus. When Jesus came, for example, there would have been no expectation of rebuilding the Temple since it was standing perfectly fine with no threats to its safety. Such a "prophecy" only came to be applied to Messianic times because the Second Temple was destroyed. What's interesting is that a Third Temple was started in the 4th century A.D., but was destroyed by an earthquake.

Judaism did definitely change significantly in the post-Temple period, however, partially in response to the growth of Christianity (which was actually a small, persecuted religion for centuries). I personally hold to the theory that Temple Judaism basically split into two branches: the Catholic, and the Rabbinical Jewish. The Catholic maintains more of the trappings of the Temple worship, and views the Messiah as having come, and the Rabbinical maintains the Synagogue model of study and worship, and is still awaiting the Messiah. I definitely don't view Christianity as a "new" religion, but rather the Catholic Church is the proper and God-ordained continuation of Temple Judaism into the post-Messianic era.

Peace and God bless!

Kaninchen · #15 Jun 10, '09, 3:19 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJTheMan

Common Christian history will tell you that, at it's very core, Christian belief started around the idea that Jesus was the Jewish messiah. So I wanted to review this idea and see what you guys think.

Jesus fulfilled all the (supposed) prophesies that could be fulfilled by text manipulation - combing the Tanakh ('Old Testament') for anything that could even vaguely be taken to be a Messianic prophesy and writing up 'Jesus' as if he 'fulfilled' them in some way or other - rather like biting the bits off jigsaw puzzle pieces to make them 'fit' the picture you want.

In other words, if one starts with 'New Testament Jesus', one will believe that he 'fulfilled' prophesy. If one starts with the Tanakh, one will consider that the 'New Testament' is a confection, a collection of pious fictions. Believe in Jesus and it's 'obvious', don't believe in Jesus and it's equally 'obvious' the other way.

It really does depend on where one starts, I expect, and argument about the subject can reach futility - sometimes angry futility, sometimes not - rather quickly.