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  #1  
Old Jun 20, '09, 7:31 am
Oscarthecat Oscarthecat is offline
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Default Are Quakers Christian?

I recently heard from a newly converted Quaker that Quakers are not "strictly Christian." He explained that some Quakers consider themselves Christian, but others do not- he even said that some of the people attending his meetings (he wouldn't call it a Church or a service) call themselves neo-pagans and wiccans.

I know that the Quakers began as Christians- did they take a major turn somewhere down the road or is this guy just part of a group calling themselves Quakers without any real attachment to real Quakers?
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  #2  
Old Jun 20, '09, 5:11 pm
SSTeacher SSTeacher is offline
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Default Re: Are Quakers Christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscarthecat View Post
I recently heard from a newly converted Quaker that Quakers are not "strictly Christian." He explained that some Quakers consider themselves Christian, but others do not- he even said that some of the people attending his meetings (he wouldn't call it a Church or a service) call themselves neo-pagans and wiccans.

I know that the Quakers began as Christians- did they take a major turn somewhere down the road or is this guy just part of a group calling themselves Quakers without any real attachment to real Quakers?
I’ll defer to anybody who has direct knowledge of Quaker tenets and how they’re applied but my understanding from reading is that Quakers recognize no sacraments. If I’ve got it right, I guess some might conjecture that Quakers didn’t even start as Christians.

Speculatively,
Mick
  #3  
Old Jun 22, '09, 10:52 am
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Default Re: Are Quakers Christian?

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Originally Posted by Oscarthecat View Post
I recently heard from a newly converted Quaker that Quakers are not "strictly Christian." He explained that some Quakers consider themselves Christian, but others do not- he even said that some of the people attending his meetings (he wouldn't call it a Church or a service) call themselves neo-pagans and wiccans.

I know that the Quakers began as Christians- did they take a major turn somewhere down the road or is this guy just part of a group calling themselves Quakers without any real attachment to real Quakers?

Most Friends would call themselves "Christians"...for we follow Christ and seek to live by his teachings. Some Friends would not call themselves "Christian" but "Friends" or "Quakers."

Quakerism as a movement began through the ministry of George Fox. He considered himself "Christian" and used definitive "Christian language" and theology to spread the message of Truth. Those first Friends were called "Children of the Light", "Seekers", Publishers of Truth" and as one important Englishman called for some Friends to "Quake in the fear of God"....they adopted the name of Quaker...they embraced a name meant to be an insult and gave it nobility.

Quakerism has it's roots in the Christian message and the Bible....but Truth cannot be contained and where the Light exists in any culture or teaching can be utiliized.

Some Friends cannot identify with the Christian mythos...and may use pagan or Wiccan teminology to seek to explain that which is beyond words and creeds...but can only be experienced.

Friends believe in the Universal Light that is given to all people..."The Light that enlighens every man was coming into the world." as the first chapter of John states it.

Friends find "Christian terminology" best suited to teach about the love of God as revealed in Jesus of Nazareth...the embodiment of the Light in our midst.

Many Christians do not believe Friends are "Christian" because Friends do not practice water baptism or "communion"...but believe that these are images and symbols that point to the "Inward and true reality" of the experience which water baptism and the eucharist point to.

Friends believe in One Baptism...that of the Spirit...the True Baptism which inwardly changes us into new creations.

Friends believe in True Communion....that Christ is Truly Present in our midst...teaching us....cleansing us...loving us when we gather in his name...He is Present Teacher...He is our Priest...each of us share in his priesthood and minister to one another in meeting vocally as the Spirit leads us to share. He is the Living Word of which scripture points to. If other religious writings teach Truth....if other religious writings embody the Light...they too are seen as vehicles of teaching the Truth to humanity.

Since Friends have no written creed there is not an established requirement of belief to be a Friend. Quakerism is experiential in nature. We seek direct and immediate communion with the Eternal as we corporately gather for worship.

Friends use the term "Meeting" instead of "Church" because it is Friend's belief the the Church meets for worship....the Church meets for business. One does not "go to church"...the "Church goes to Meeting"..."where two or three of you gather in my name...there am I in your midst."

Quakerism seeks to live Truth....not necessarily write creeds that expound about it....what good are creeds if those that embrace those creeds do not live the teachings out in their daily lives? Friends seek to Live their Creed...not only speak about it. Unless the Truth is incarnated into our daily lives...the creeds are just empty words..."tinkling brass...." without love displayed ....the Kingdom of God is realized in the here and now....it must impact our world now to have any value....the "next life" will take care of itself...
  #4  
Old Jun 22, '09, 11:02 am
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Default Re: Are Quakers Christian?

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Originally Posted by SSTeacher View Post
I’ll defer to anybody who has direct knowledge of Quaker tenets and how they’re applied but my understanding from reading is that Quakers recognize no sacraments. If I’ve got it right, I guess some might conjecture that Quakers didn’t even start as Christians.

Speculatively,
Mick

Some may not call Friends "Christian"...that's ok...."By this shall all men know you are my disciples...that you love one another..." How Friends exemplify this principle in our lives is the only way for us to answer the question if we "are Christian" or not...but I think this would be for any who call themselves "Christian"...not just Quakers.


Christ has no body now on earth but yours, no hands but yours,no feet but yours; yours are the eyes through which Christ's compassion looks out on the world, yours are the feet with which He is to go about doing good and yours are the hands with which He is to bless us now. -Teresa of Avila

We do not reject the spiritual realities toward which sacraments point. We recognize baptism as the transformation of life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We recognize communion as the presence of Jesus Christ in our corporate worship. We recognize ordination as the diverse giftedness for ministry of all people. We recognize these things, and rejoice in them, but we do not believe that the church should seek to initiate them through ritual means.
Without getting too deep into theology, it is important to bring in here the fact that our understanding of the nature of the church is based on a realized eschatology of the new covenant. The old system has passed away, and Christ is present among us to lead us into an experience of the kingdom, here and now. Therefore, we reject all interim structures of authority, and seek in all ways to be obedient to the immediate leadership of Christ. As the Friends in Lausanne stated, “We believe that a corporate practice of the presence of God, a corporate knowledge of Christ in our midst, a common experience of the work of the living Spirit, constitute the supremely real sacrament of a Holy Communion.” (Nuhn p. 20)

Last edited by Publisher; Jun 22, '09 at 11:17 am.
  #5  
Old Jun 22, '09, 1:23 pm
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Claire from DE Claire from DE is offline
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Default Re: Are Quakers Christian?

My sister-in-law is a member of her local Friends Meeting. She doesn't hold Catholic or mainline Christian beliefs about Jesus.
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Old Jun 22, '09, 1:28 pm
Oscarthecat Oscarthecat is offline
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Default Re: Are Quakers Christian?

Publisher-
Thanks for your very thorough response...

Just a couple more questions to help me clarify some of the things my friend said...

Would you say that Fox didn't begin the movement within an expressly Christian framework with the expectation or intention that it remain within that expressly Christian framework?

Is there any kind of division within Quakerism between those who hold to an exclusively and explicitly Christian framework (to the exclusion of non-Christian traditions), and those who do not? For example, and I know this probably isn't the best corollary, would some Quakers think of themselves as "orthodox Quakers?"
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  #7  
Old Jun 22, '09, 3:18 pm
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Default Re: Are Quakers Christian?

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Originally Posted by Oscarthecat View Post
Publisher-
Thanks for your very thorough response...

Just a couple more questions to help me clarify some of the things my friend said...

Would you say that Fox didn't begin the movement within an expressly Christian framework with the expectation or intention that it remain within that expressly Christian framework?


George Fox DID feel he had "rediscovered" original Christianity....he felt he had found the Risen Christ was immediately present for instruction for living. Fox's experience was centered in England and Colonial America...I don't think he envisioned the principles of the Light Within outside the context of Christianity....he did however notice that among some Native Americans and even "Mohamedans" the Light Within instructed them in the ways of the Spirit. Truth is found in Christianity exclusively.

It has been said of George Fox, if the Bible were to somehow be destroyed, it could be "recreated" from Fox's Journal, so extensive was his quoting and writing concerning scripture. Most early Friends had deep respect for the Bible, and read it each day. One of the "signs" that one had become a Friend was that the prayer book, that use to be printed with the Bible, was torn out Friends Bibles.


Is there any kind of division within Quakerism between those who hold to an exclusively and explicitly Christian framework (to the exclusion of non-Christian traditions), and those who do not? For example, and I know this probably isn't the best corollary, would some Quakers think of themselves as "orthodox Quakers?"
Yes there are various groups of Friends. There are "Orthodox/Conservative" Friends who still meet on the basis of silent worship yet are very conservative and orthodox in their belief of the major tenets of Christianity. There are more "liberal "Friends who are much more open to embracing those with different beliefs than historically held and who meet on the basis of silence. Both are considered "non-programmed" meetings.

There are those Friends who have been heavily influenced by the evangelical revivals of the 19th century who have embraced evangelical beliefs and have employed a pastoral system...."programmed meetings". One would not see too much of a difference in attending these "meetings' than one would say a Free Methodist or Nazarene service...except these Friends have a time of "silent worship" where any may bring ministry. One more difference is most of these evangelical meetings do not practice ordinances....however in some Yearly Meetings of the Evangelical Friends Church, provision is made for those who feel a need to engage in "outward signs" of water baptism, communion and or foot washing.

All Friends work together on social conerns in the American Friends Service Committee. Our diversity in religious matters of doctrine have not kept us from following our ethos of seeking to establish centers of peace and seeking social justice.

The "Hicksite/Conservative" split that occured in the 19th century has been "healed" and on the East Coast many of the Meetings have come back together under Friends United Meeting. There are independent monthly meetings of both "liberal" and "conservative" leanings that operate within some "ecumenical" forums among Friends. Our belief in seeking peace has allowed us to serve with each other...even though our particular belief system on how we view scripture, the nature of God, the diety of Christ etc is different.

In the Meeting I attend we have very conservative Bible believing Friends...and some Friends who might identify themselves as "neo-pagan" or "unitarian" in belief....but we worship together seeking to witness and speak to "that of God" in one another.
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Old Jun 22, '09, 4:30 pm
SSTeacher SSTeacher is offline
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Default Re: Are Quakers Christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Publisher View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSTeacher View Post
I’ll defer to anybody who has direct knowledge of Quaker tenets and how they’re applied but my understanding from reading is that Quakers recognize no sacraments. If I’ve got it right, I guess some might conjecture that Quakers didn’t even start as Christians.

Speculatively,
Mick
Some may not call Friends "Christian"...that's ok...."By this shall all men know you are my disciples...that you love one another..." How Friends exemplify this principle in our lives is the only way for us to answer the question if we "are Christian" or not...but I think this would be for any who call themselves "Christian"...not just Quakers.


Christ has no body now on earth but yours, no hands but yours,no feet but yours; yours are the eyes through which Christ's compassion looks out on the world, yours are the feet with which He is to go about doing good and yours are the hands with which He is to bless us now. -Teresa of Avila

We do not reject the spiritual realities toward which sacraments point. We recognize baptism as the transformation of life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We recognize communion as the presence of Jesus Christ in our corporate worship. We recognize ordination as the diverse giftedness for ministry of all people. We recognize these things, and rejoice in them, but we do not believe that the church should seek to initiate them through ritual means.
Without getting too deep into theology, it is important to bring in here the fact that our understanding of the nature of the church is based on a realized eschatology of the new covenant. The old system has passed away, and Christ is present among us to lead us into an experience of the kingdom, here and now. Therefore, we reject all interim structures of authority, and seek in all ways to be obedient to the immediate leadership of Christ. As the Friends in Lausanne stated, “We believe that a corporate practice of the presence of God, a corporate knowledge of Christ in our midst, a common experience of the work of the living Spirit, constitute the supremely real sacrament of a Holy Communion.” (Nuhn p. 20)
Thanks for the explanation.

Appreciatively,
Mick
  #9  
Old Jun 22, '09, 6:16 pm
survive survive is offline
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Default Re: Are Quakers Christian?

This subject drives me up the proverbial wall. You see, George Fox was most certainly a Christian, who founded the Religious Society of Friends as a Protestant denomination in a roughly Anabaptist tradition in the 17th Century because the Anabaptists to whom he had access at age 19 weren't orthodox enough for him and the Anglicans weren't devout enough and he couldn't get behind the Five Points and be a Calvinist, so he sat in despair troubled about where to worship Jesus Christ when a voice spoke to him, saying, "There is One Who can speak to thy condition, even Christ Jesus." He took that to mean that he could start a kind of no-budget, no preparation-time secret church, and call it a society of friends (i.e. friends getting to gether, so no one would know it was really a church). The Religious Society of Friends are now also known as Evangelical Friends and are a middle-of-the-road Evangelical denomination.
Now, Liberal/Unprogrammed Friends, such as Friends General Conference, are different. When I was RSF I visisted my then-roommate's FGC Meeting House and she visited my church. The difference in doctrinal conformity, clergy (we had them, they didn't), meeting/service structure (some overlap, not much), and culture and teaching in every way was deep: Some FGC members said they had no particular doctrine and just went there to meditate. That dog doesn't hunt in RSF.
So, anyway, while most FGC'ers I've heard from will refer to "Friends" and "Quakers" when they mean themselves, most Friends/Quakers are actually RSF, the Society Fox created. The terminology is confusing at first. For example, RSF has weekly meetings at a church, and larger gatherings and discussions at Monthly, Quarterly and Yearly Meetings. Yearly Meeting draws people all over a region, from usually hundreds of weekly meetings. FGC, however, has weekly meetings at a Meeting or Meeting House, and larger gatherings that include the General Conference.
This distinction is alive and if anything deepening.
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Old Jun 23, '09, 4:08 am
SSTeacher SSTeacher is offline
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Default Re: Are Quakers Christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by survive View Post
This subject drives me up the proverbial wall. You see, George Fox was most certainly a Christian, who founded the Religious Society of Friends as a Protestant denomination in a roughly Anabaptist tradition in the 17th Century because the Anabaptists to whom he had access at age 19 weren't orthodox enough for him and the Anglicans weren't devout enough and he couldn't get behind the Five Points and be a Calvinist, so he sat in despair troubled about where to worship Jesus Christ when a voice spoke to him, saying, "There is One Who can speak to thy condition, even Christ Jesus." He took that to mean that he could start a kind of no-budget, no preparation-time secret church, and call it a society of friends (i.e. friends getting to gether, so no one would know it was really a church). The Religious Society of Friends are now also known as Evangelical Friends and are a middle-of-the-road Evangelical denomination.
Now, Liberal/Unprogrammed Friends, such as Friends General Conference, are different. When I was RSF I visisted my then-roommate's FGC Meeting House and she visited my church. The difference in doctrinal conformity, clergy (we had them, they didn't), meeting/service structure (some overlap, not much), and culture and teaching in every way was deep: Some FGC members said they had no particular doctrine and just went there to meditate. That dog doesn't hunt in RSF.
So, anyway, while most FGC'ers I've heard from will refer to "Friends" and "Quakers" when they mean themselves, most Friends/Quakers are actually RSF, the Society Fox created. The terminology is confusing at first. For example, RSF has weekly meetings at a church, and larger gatherings and discussions at Monthly, Quarterly and Yearly Meetings. Yearly Meeting draws people all over a region, from usually hundreds of weekly meetings. FGC, however, has weekly meetings at a Meeting or Meeting House, and larger gatherings that include the General Conference.
This distinction is alive and if anything deepening.
survive,

Thanks a lot for posting the above. I've never been invited to a Friends Meeting so I've never attended one. I've been told, though, that Friends do not have any music in their worship. Is that true?

Curiously,
Mick
  #11  
Old Jun 23, '09, 8:06 am
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Default Re: Are Quakers Christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by survive View Post
This subject drives me up the proverbial wall. You see, George Fox was most certainly a Christian, who founded the Religious Society of Friends as a Protestant denomination in a roughly Anabaptist tradition in the 17th Century because the Anabaptists to whom he had access at age 19 weren't orthodox enough for him and the Anglicans weren't devout enough and he couldn't get behind the Five Points and be a Calvinist, so he sat in despair troubled about where to worship Jesus Christ when a voice spoke to him, saying, "There is One Who can speak to thy condition, even Christ Jesus." He took that to mean that he could start a kind of no-budget, no preparation-time secret church, and call it a society of friends (i.e. friends getting to gether, so no one would know it was really a church). The Religious Society of Friends are now also known as Evangelical Friends and are a middle-of-the-road Evangelical denomination.
Now, Liberal/Unprogrammed Friends, such as Friends General Conference, are different. When I was RSF I visisted my then-roommate's FGC Meeting House and she visited my church. The difference in doctrinal conformity, clergy (we had them, they didn't), meeting/service structure (some overlap, not much), and culture and teaching in every way was deep: Some FGC members said they had no particular doctrine and just went there to meditate. That dog doesn't hunt in RSF.
So, anyway, while most FGC'ers I've heard from will refer to "Friends" and "Quakers" when they mean themselves, most Friends/Quakers are actually RSF, the Society Fox created. The terminology is confusing at first. For example, RSF has weekly meetings at a church, and larger gatherings and discussions at Monthly, Quarterly and Yearly Meetings. Yearly Meeting draws people all over a region, from usually hundreds of weekly meetings. FGC, however, has weekly meetings at a Meeting or Meeting House, and larger gatherings that include the General Conference.
This distinction is alive and if anything deepening.

George Fox never intended to begin a "secret church"...from the start Friends met in the open...they refused to hide in any "underground" as they believed that God's Truth could be lived out before all people....and should be. For this belief in Truthful living the English jails were populated by Friends in the 17th century. Friends have been catagorized with the Anabaptists as they do share some common ground...namely a belief in peace and the immediacy of the Spirit...where Friends differ with Anabaptists...is...well...baptism. Friends rejected outward forms of ritual that would imply a bestowal of "grace" or any efficacy toward salvation..."salvation" was the work of God in Christ and all who were recipient of this grace leading to salvation would be new creatures....Quakerism is about "doing" not about doctrinal ideas and creeds.

While each Meeting tends to compile a "consensus" of what they embrace theologically...and it is rooted in Christian thought and terminology....it is not required to call oneself a "Christian" to participate in Meeting for Worship.

Friends didn't want their meeting houses to be identified with "church"....as it was the Church who gathered together for corporate worship...in a building....or in a field...or in the center of town in the town square or in jail.

While Evangelical Friends do employ the "pastoral system" and conducts pretty common evangelical worship services...including singing and music....they retain the understanding that it is God and God alone who calls and ordains men and women to the vocal ministry. Evangelical and Conservative Friends "record" the ordination...they don't "ordain". You will find the term "recorded minister" used among them. In FGC and some Friends United Meeting each and every member is called to offer ministry as the Spirit lead them...both "vocal" and "temporal" to the Meeting as a whole.

Actually most Friends are associated with the Evangelical Friends these days. Most Friends no longer reside in the US but the majority live in Africa and South America.

Among non-programmed Friends Meetings in the last decade or so there has been a resurgence of interest among Seekers who have found the simplicity of Friends worship and the stressing of the immediacy of God's Presence in our midst and Christ as Pressent Teacher...many non-programmed Meetings have grown...especially on the West Coast. The Meeting I attend has two services...in the last decade "prepatory Meetings" have been established within the Yearly Meeting as well because of the growth.

Many people find Quaker worship...boring....as a Gathered Meeting is dependent upon all in attendence to participate in prayerful expectant waiting upon the Lord. Some Meetings have a time for singing either before the Meeting for Worship begins or afterwards just before "First Day School" begins.

Many Friends associated with Friends General Conference have found the freedom to seek to understand the Light Within in 'non-Christian" terms...but as a whole Friends find that God is best known and understoodd through Jesus of Nazareth. While each of us "progress" in our understanding of how to "vocalize" our beliefs, no set "belief system" is required to be "confessed" to join a Meeting....just the affirmation that one is open to the guidence of the Spirit and will embrace the Quaker way of daily living and participate in Meeting life.

I invited a Nazarene friend to attend Meeting with me....as we sat during the "rise of the Meeting"...he leaned over and asked..."When do we start?"...I whispered back..."We started 15 minutes ago."
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Old Jun 23, '09, 10:08 am
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Anyone not baptized with the Trinitarian formula are not considered "Christian."
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Old Jun 23, '09, 10:10 am
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Anyone not baptized with the Trinitarian formula are not considered "Christian."
So we've been told.

For those of us who count ourselves as Friends...while we wish it were different in regards to being considered "Christian" by other believers....what others believe about us is not much of a concern....we follow the Light and put our trust in the One who "speaks to our condition". We have placed ourselves in the Best of Hands....and that is the best place to be.

Last edited by Publisher; Jun 23, '09 at 10:28 am.
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Old Jun 23, '09, 10:43 am
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Originally Posted by Publisher View Post
So we've been told.

For those of us who count ourselves as Friends...while we wish it were different in regards to being considered "Christian" by other believers....what others believe about us is not much of a concern....we follow the Light and put our trust in the One who "speaks to our condition". We have placed ourselves in the Best of Hands....and that is the best place to be.
And so you say.
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Old Jun 23, '09, 2:11 pm
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Default Re: Are Quakers Christian?

Publisher,

Thank you so much for the informative information that you have provided for us about the Quakers!

God Bless!
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