Are guitars, rock bands, lifeteen, dancing, etc. all allowed?

thunderballs75 · #1 Jun 21, '09, 12:58 pm

I am wondering..I always see these rock bands playing at the Novus Ordo Masses. I've even seen one of the lifeteen/edge Masses. Then there's the dancing, the moving of the tabernacle, the clapping, etc. So, is this all perfectly in accord with the GIRM? It is, isn't it? Nobody can do anything, because according to the officials there's nothing wrong with it, right? Thanks.

**buffalo** · #2 Jun 21, '09, 12:59 pm

No.

michaeldaniels · #3 Jun 21, '09, 1:52 pm

To me...all of those things are an abomination and should be eliminated immediately...it takes the Mass and shifts the focus from God to man and glorifying man instead of God...Where is the solemness?

Shin · #4 Jun 21, '09, 2:30 pm

If you were before Christ being crucified on Calvary, truly there witnessing it, would you start up a rock band and clap and dance?

What are you doing?

**puzzleannie** · #5 Jun 21, '09, 2:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderballs75

I am wondering..I always see these rock bands playing at the Novus Ordo Masses. I've even seen one of the lifeteen/edge Masses. Then there's the dancing, the moving of the tabernacle, the clapping, etc. So, is this all perfectly in accord with the GIRM? It is, isn't it? Nobody can do anything, because according to the officials there's nothing wrong with it, right? Thanks.

since this is the only Mass, except for one or two times I made it to the TLM in the last 40 years, I have to say my experience is otherwise, I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I have heard what I would describe as a rock band at Mass.

guitars does not equal rock band, nor does it equal "folk music". It is one of several instruments permissible for liturgical music. as long as the music and lyrics are approved for Mass and performed in such a way as to enhance rather than detract from the liturgy, they are okay. maybe not my personal preference, but not an abuse, not an aberration. No clapping should not ordinarily be involved. we should not clap after a soloist or choir renders a hymn after communion to organ accompaniment at the TLM, either.

Lifeteen if done in accordance with the rubrics is also legitimate. Like any other Mass, NO, EF, OF, traditional or whatever, if it does not follow the norms than yes, there can be problems. guitar does not equal lifeteen. lifeteen does not equal rock music. contemporary Christian music does not equal clapping, stamping, drums, bad behavior, or dancing. No liturgical dance has no place in the Mass of the Latin rite. Lifeteen does not incorporate it in their Mass. Those that are doing it have made their own additions to the LT program.

Moving the tabernacle has nothing whatever to do with any of the above, but is a local decision made by a local pastor based on the needs of his parish. Again, as long as the norms are followed, he is not guilty of any abuse.

what "officials" are you speaking of? the "official" is the pastor in the parish and bishop in the diocese. address your concerns to him. No, in this culture there is no place for liturgical dance. We are not speaking of other cultures or other rites in this instance.

LoveJesus · #6 Jun 21, '09, 2:48 pm

Dancing at Mass is not a sin. There are quite a few parts of the world where people dance to the music during Mass. In non-Western cultures (especially African) it's normal. A solemn demeanor does not equal reverence. People can be danging for joy because they are happy to commune with Jesus.

**brotherhrolf** · #7 Jun 21, '09, 2:58 pm

Solemnity departed from us in the summer of 1967 when most parishes began transitioning from the TLM to the NO. Solemnity was gone by 1969 when my classmates whipped out their guitars and we sang Sons of God Hear His Holy Word, Sounds of Silence, Bridge over Troubled Waters, and They'll Know We are Christians by our Love for the 100th and last graduation Mass for my Catholic boys high school.

My classmates are still at it (at alumni association Masses, for example) even though we had a perfectly good schola in 1967 with perfectly good voices (including my own) who were quite capable of singing Latin in chant or in sacred motets.

But, of course, we didn't understand Latin; couldn't sing chant if our lives depended upon it (nobody understood chant); ripped out the historic organs in our churches and replaced them with guitars, drums, keyboards, etc. all because we had to make Mass more "relevant" to my generation.

There was no survey taken in 1967 about our feelings. I, for one, was perfectly happy with the Latin. I hated the guitars and the sappy Muppet music then and I hate them now and everything which has followed since (e.g. liturgical dancers and, yes, I have had the extreme misfortune of having seen them). I just can't say it because it is not liturgically correct. Whoops! I shouldn't have said anything. Can't we all just sing Kumbaya?

,

Brenda V. · #8 Jun 21, '09, 3:06 pm

A LIfeteen Mass that follows the Lifeteen rules would not have what you describe. Guitars and drums maybe but not the moving of the tabernacle or dancing.

A Lifeteen Dance in the Parish Hall is a different matter entirely, it would be a social event and not part of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass!

Brenda V.

**brotherhrolf** · #9 Jun 21, '09, 3:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveJesus

Dancing at Mass is not a sin. There are quite a few parts of the world where people dance to the music during Mass. In non-Western cultures (especially African) it's normal. A solemn demeanor does not equal reverence. People can be danging for joy because they are happy to commune with Jesus.

We are not African, Polynesian, Australian, etc. The Irish did not step dance at Mass. The English did not have Morris Dances. The French did not minuet, etc., etc., etc. Western Europeans and their descendants have NO tradition of dancing at Mass in 2000 years.

Love Jesus, here is something quite close to my heart. I have heard Irish music used in a Mass setting even though we Irish don't sing because we had to attend Mass out amongst the hedge rows and couldn't sing lest we be discovered. But I am also Cajun - Acadian. Cajun Music belongs in the dance halls and to my knowledge a Missa Chank-a-Chank has not been composed.

I fully embrace my western culture. We didn't dance. We composed. We have 1500 years of western music. Where did that 1500 years go in the last 45 years?

Shin · #10 Jun 21, '09, 3:52 pm

A mass that is made relevant to a particular generation, is irrelevant to all the rest.

Rather we must become relevant to the mass!

kage_ar · #11 Jun 21, '09, 4:17 pm

Sometimes I wonder if the people who complain about "rock bands" at such and thus mass have ever actually SEEN a rock band

thunderballs75 · #12 Jun 21, '09, 4:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kage_ar

Sometimes I wonder if the people who complain about "rock bands" at such and thus mass have ever actually SEEN a rock band

LOL! Trust me dude, if only you had seen me back in my prime...I still love to pop in a Megadeth or Slayer album every once in a while.

But anyways, so I was right? There is nothing actually wrong with these practices. As somebody else pointed out, the officials are the local pastors and if they have no problem with it, I have no right to have a problem with it either. Correct? Also, when I talk about dancing, they do it in the church, but technically before Mass. So then it is okay, yes?

Brenda V. · #13 Jun 21, '09, 6:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderballs75

LOL! Trust me dude, if only you had seen me back in my prime...I still love to pop in a Megadeth or Slayer album every once in a while.

But anyways, so I was right? There is nothing actually wrong with these practices. As somebody else pointed out, the officials are the local pastors and if they have no problem with it, I have no right to have a problem with it either. Correct? Also, when I talk about dancing, they do it in the church, but technically before Mass. So then it is okay, yes?

No, I believe brotherhrolf addressed this. Here in the US (and Europe for that matter) we do not dance before Mass or after Mass in the church. It is not part of our specific culture hence we do not do it. Now if you went to Africa and attended Mass there, you very well may see dancing as part of the Mass but that is part of their culture!

Brenda V.

Shin · #14 Jun 21, '09, 6:22 pm

The music at mass is to be sacred music, not profane music. For music to be sacred it is not only the words, but the instruments and their manner of being played that must be different from the worldly manner of playing.

The music's purpose is to lift up the mind to God, not bring it down below, while exciting the passions.

I do not have the regulations on hand on what music may or may not be allowed into the mass, and what instruments, etc. but the pastoral guidance will be along these lines. Perhaps someone else does, there've been some updates relatively recently.

The model for sacred music is the Gregorian Chant, this has been reiterated and not changed.

The founder of Life Teen is rather notorious, and Life Teen is notorious for its liturgical abuses in general. I generally wouldn't recommend masses celebrated by Life Teen when there was an alternative mass available.

If a specific behavior isn't found in the GIRM, it isn't allowed.

You abide by the rules you don't fill in the blanks because they aren't blanks for filling in.

thunderballs75 · #15 Jun 21, '09, 6:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shin

The music at mass is to be sacred music, not profane music. For music to be sacred it is not only the words, but the instruments and their manner of being played that must be different from the worldly manner of playing.

The music's purpose is to lift up the mind to God, not bring it down below, while exciting the passions.

I do not have the regulations on hand on what music may or may not be allowed into the mass, and what instruments, etc. but the pastoral guidance will be along these lines. Perhaps someone else does, there've been some updates relatively recently.

The model for sacred music is the Gregorian Chant, this has been reiterated and not changed.

The founder of Life Teen is rather notorious, and Life Teen is notorious for its liturgical abuses in general. I generally wouldn't recommend masses celebrated by Life Teen when there was an alternative mass available.

If a specific behavior isn't found in the GIRM, it isn't allowed.

You abide by the rules you don't fill in the blanks because they aren't blanks for filling in.

Apparently for some people the use of guitars and drums and stuff is sacred enough and does raise them up to God. Ironically enough, I went to a Mass with my grandmother, and the drums and guitar really seem to suit her. Gregorian Chant is not found anywhere. It has completely lost its place as the standard (this has happened in Church history before). But this is allowed, and in many places encouraged. So how can we complain?

Of course, the LifeTeen Masses were having some problems with following correct liturgical norms, however these have been cleared up. They've also tried to distance themselves from their excommunicated sexual abuser founder.