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  #1  
Old Jun 24, '09, 5:15 pm
Bill Pick Bill Pick is offline
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Default Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul. Non-Catholics like to point out this verse to Catholics (out of context of course), as they mistakenly perceive that we 'mediate' through His mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. Nothing could be further from the truth.

-
'Mediator', as defined by the dictionary, the first meaning, is: 'One who works to resolve or settle differences by working with all the conflicting parties'.

The 'conflicting parties' in this case, are of course, GOD, and mankind. Jesus Christ did indeed act as mediator by suffering and dying for us.
  #2  
Old Jun 24, '09, 7:10 pm
Jessi Thomist Jessi Thomist is offline
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Default Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

Where is this in St. Paul?

Very early in the Church people started referring to Our Lady as the mediatrix. Through her Christ is able to mediate grace, in fact. I assume that in context it means that only Christ, as true God and Man is able to justify us by mediating between us and the father through his crucifixion and resurrection.

Peace.
  #3  
Old Jun 24, '09, 7:31 pm
BRB1 BRB1 is offline
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Default Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

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Originally Posted by Jessi Thomist View Post
Our Lady as the mediatrix. Through her Christ is able to mediate grace, Peace.
Grace doesn't arise from Mary ... it only passes thru her. She is a chosen vessel of Christ, to serve him and his elect.

All grace is from the domain of Christ ...
  #4  
Old Jun 25, '09, 6:21 am
JonNC JonNC is offline
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Default Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

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Originally Posted by BRB1 View Post
Grace doesn't arise from Mary ... it only passes thru her. She is a chosen vessel of Christ, to serve him and his elect.

All grace is from the domain of Christ ...
BRB1,
The last sentence, we can all agree on.

The part about the Grace passing through the Blessed Virgin - I think that can often make a Protestant's head spin.
Maybe you could explain this more, for those of us you want to understand, and not just condemn.

Jon
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“This also is certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages, for it is clearly written in 2 Peter 1:20: ‘The Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.’
"The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. "
Chemnitz
  #5  
Old Jun 25, '09, 9:25 am
Bill Pick Bill Pick is offline
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Default Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

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Originally Posted by Jessi Thomist View Post
Where is this in St. Paul?

Very early in the Church people started referring to Our Lady as the mediatrix. Through her Christ is able to mediate grace, in fact. I assume that in context it means that only Christ, as true God and Man is able to justify us by mediating between us and the father through his crucifixion and resurrection.

Peace.
1Tim 2:5
  #6  
Old Jun 25, '09, 8:40 pm
Jessi Thomist Jessi Thomist is offline
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Default Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

Thanks. As I suspected, context is everything. Paul is saying that only Christ is able to mediate strictly speaking between man and God; but Mary is a mediatrix of grace insofar as she is 1) the mother of God, from whom all grace flows, and 2) she is the most perfect intercessor, because she was saved from original sin and is yet still fully human. Again, she is not God and thus hasn't authority in herself to mediate grace, but through her grace is mediated.

For notes on Mary as the mediatrix see especially Redemptoris Mater JPII

This is a tradition of the Church, but it is not yet dogma; although a petition has been sent to the Holy Father for this reason.
  #7  
Old Jun 25, '09, 8:41 pm
BRB1 BRB1 is offline
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Default Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

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Originally Posted by JonNC View Post
Grace passing through the Blessed Virgin - I think that can often make a Protestant's head spin.:
Is there any SS that would specifically forbid Mary from serving in such a role ?
Mary is not the origin of the grace, just one means of conveying it to mankind.

Don't Lutherans believe that the Saints play an active 'support role' in the spiritual battle ?
  #8  
Old Jun 25, '09, 10:29 pm
Louie1983 Louie1983 is offline
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Default Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

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Originally Posted by JonNC View Post
BRB1,
The last sentence, we can all agree on.

The part about the Grace passing through the Blessed Virgin - I think that can often make a Protestant's head spin.
Maybe you could explain this more, for those of us you want to understand, and not just condemn.
Jon
Greetings and blessings Jon,

One simple way of putting it is that if Jesus came to us through Mary, then we can go to Jesus through Mary also!

Her will is God's will "behold the handmaid of the lord, be it done unto me according to thy word". She prays for us to Jesus frm whom all grace comes! We don't HAVE to pray through her but it is strongly recommended and thousands of saints have done it also. Some saints attribute thier faith to her because she has leD them to her son! She is a beneficiary of God's grace and all she wants is to bring us to that also! Her son!

She was sinless, faultless without sin! Wouldn't you want a) Jesus Mother to pray for you b) someone who is without sin to pray for you? I know i would!

There are times in the gospel that she intercedes for someone e.g at the marriage at cana - miracle of the wine. Jesus even responded "women my hour has not yet come", but in the end he fulfilled his mother's request!
  #9  
Old Jun 25, '09, 11:16 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
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Smile Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hi Jessi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi Thomist View Post
As I suspected, context is everything. Paul is saying that only Christ is able to mediate strictly speaking between man and God; but Mary is a mediatrix of grace insofar as she is 1) the mother of God, from whom all grace flows, and 2) she is the most perfect intercessor, because she was saved from original sin and is yet still fully human. Again, she is not God and thus hasn't authority in herself to mediate grace, but through her grace is mediated.

For notes on Mary as the mediatrix see especially Redemptoris Mater JPII

This is a tradition of the Church, but it is not yet dogma; although a petition has been sent to the Holy Father for this reason.
Please explain what Mediatrix of all graces means to you.

Is it hyperbole, as in "the Mekong is the Mother of Waters" or "My wife has the most beautiful eyes!" ? Is it intended as a compliment about Mary, as a praise?

Or is it a function...does it mean every type of grace passes through her but not necessarily every bit of grace? ... or does it mean the sum total of all grace passes through her in some active fashion, or what else exactly?

What happened before she died...was there no grace or was she doing this all along?

Does it mean that Mary has the ability to control grace or to block grace? Or does it mean she acts like a conduit of grace with nothing to say about the outcome?

What about the other saints and the angels, do they share in this mediation or is it unique?

Please pardon me, but I cannot clearly see the point of such an acclamation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi Thomist View Post
This is a tradition of the Church, but it is not yet dogma; although a petition has been sent to the Holy Father for this reason.
I believe that it is improper to stat "it is not yet dogma" as it presupposes that it will someday be.

No one, not even a Pope, can know that, not even if he has a definite intention to pronounce it.

Michael
  #10  
Old Jun 25, '09, 11:22 pm
Thorwald Thorwald is offline
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Default Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi Thomist View Post
Thanks. As I suspected, context is everything. Paul is saying that only Christ is able to mediate strictly speaking between man and God; but Mary is a mediatrix of grace insofar as she is 1) the mother of God, from whom all grace flows, and 2) she is the most perfect intercessor, because she was saved from original sin and is yet still fully human. Again, she is not God and thus hasn't authority in herself to mediate grace, but through her grace is mediated.

For notes on Mary as the mediatrix see especially Redemptoris Mater JPII

This is a tradition of the Church, but it is not yet dogma; although a petition has been sent to the Holy Father for this reason.
We, as Protestants, see Mary as the mother of Christ (the Son of Man and the Son of the Lord God Almighty). We do not see Mary as the mother of God. Jesus was begotten as the Lord of Hosts, before the world was, without a mother. In Acts, it is written, "This same Jesus that you have crucified, I have made both Lord and Christ." In Isaiah 44:6, we find that "God" consists of The Lord God Almighty and Jesus (as Lord of Hosts and Lamb).

The N/T quotes Christ as saying, that He (alone), is the way, the truth and the life...the door...the chastiser...the mediator (along with the Holy Ghost...the spirit [of] truth). There is no quote (by Christ/God) in the Bible, that gives Mary any special 'powers' in terms of mediation (nor any other human being). In order for God to provide the Son of Man (Lamb), He had to choose 'a' woman. He chose Mary. It is as simple as that.

It is written, that we do not even know how to pray. It is NOT written, 'except for Mary'. Our prayers are just as powerful as hers (or anyone else's prayers), if we are right with God, and our prayers are righteous.

God has chosen people to do His work, as He has seen fit, since the beginning of the creation of Adam & Eve. Mary is simply one of these chosen people, to do a certain 'job' (albeit, a very honourable & precious 'job'). The purpose of her 'job', was not to glorify Mary, herself, but to glorify the Lord God Almighty and HIs only begotten Son (ie. "GOD"), and provide us with a source for redemption.
  #11  
Old Jun 26, '09, 7:07 am
JonNC JonNC is offline
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Default Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

Quote:
=Thorwald;5372485]We, as Protestants, see Mary as the mother of Christ (the Son of Man and the Son of the Lord God Almighty). We do not see Mary as the mother of God. Jesus was begotten as the Lord of Hosts, before the world was, without a mother. In Acts, it is written, "This same Jesus that you have crucified, I have made both Lord and Christ." In Isaiah 44:6, we find that "God" consists of The Lord God Almighty and Jesus (as Lord of Hosts and Lamb).
Speak for yourself.
Quote:
24] On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, bore not a mere man, but, as the angel [Gabriel] testifies, such a man as is truly the Son of the most high God, who showed His divine majesty even in His mother's womb, inasmuch as He was born of a virgin, with her virginity inviolate. Therefore she is truly the mother of God, and nevertheless remained a virgin.
http://www.bookofconcord.org/sd-person.php

Jon
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“This also is certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages, for it is clearly written in 2 Peter 1:20: ‘The Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.’
"The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. "
Chemnitz
  #12  
Old Jun 26, '09, 7:14 am
SHW SHW is offline
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Default Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

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Originally Posted by Thorwald View Post
We, as Protestants, see Mary as the mother of Christ (the Son of Man and the Son of the Lord God Almighty). We do not see Mary as the mother of God. Jesus was begotten as the Lord of Hosts, before the world was, without a mother. In Acts, it is written, "This same Jesus that you have crucified, I have made both Lord and Christ." In Isaiah 44:6, we find that "God" consists of The Lord God Almighty and Jesus (as Lord of Hosts and Lamb).
The Word was God. He was a spiritual being (had divine nature) and He was eternally begotten before the world began.

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


Jesus existed before Abraham, He says He is I AM. I AM is God.

Exodus 3:14
"And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

John 8:58 "Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”


The Word became flesh.

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."


Mary, a human, is the Mother of Jesus the Word Incarnate and so Jesus now has both a divine nature and a human nature. Jesus is God, and Mary is Jesus' Mother, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. She is Mother of God the Son only, of course. She is not the Mother of God the Father and she is not the Mother of God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the one Mediator between God and Man because He is both God and Man. Jesus mediated our status from enemy of God due to Adam's sin to friend of God by His offering of Himself as the perfect sacrifice on the cross to atone for Adam's sin. [Romans 5]
  #13  
Old Jun 26, '09, 7:24 am
JonNC JonNC is offline
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Default Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

Thanks to both of you for your replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRB1 View Post
Is there any SS that would specifically forbid Mary from serving in such a role ?
Mary is not the origin of the grace, just one means of conveying it to mankind.Don't Lutherans believe that the Saints play an active 'support role' in the spiritual battle ?
The answer to the first question is no, of course. To the last one, yes, in the sense that they are always praying for the Church Militant.
To the middle, which I bolded, could it not be said that all of us who are regenerate are (should be) a means of conveying His grace? If so, is this the same, or do you mean it in a different way for the Blessed Virgin?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Louie1983:
One simple way of putting it is that if Jesus came to us through Mary, then we can go to Jesus through Mary also!

Her will is God's will "behold the handmaid of the lord, be it done unto me according to thy word". She prays for us to Jesus frm whom all grace comes! We don't HAVE to pray through her but it is strongly recommended and thousands of saints have done it also. Some saints attribute thier faith to her because she has leD them to her son! She is a beneficiary of God's grace and all she wants is to bring us to that also! Her son!

She was sinless, faultless without sin! Wouldn't you want a) Jesus Mother to pray for you b) someone who is without sin to pray for you? I know i would!

There are times in the gospel that she intercedes for someone e.g at the marriage at cana - miracle of the wine. Jesus even responded "women my hour has not yet come", but in the end he fulfilled his mother's request!
Does this answer my question above? Is her sinlessness something that makes her a better conveyor of grace than, say, you or me, or my pastor or your priest?

Jon
__________________
“This also is certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages, for it is clearly written in 2 Peter 1:20: ‘The Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.’
"The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. "
Chemnitz
  #14  
Old Jun 26, '09, 10:00 am
Thorwald Thorwald is offline
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Default Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

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Originally Posted by SHW View Post
The Word was God. He was a spiritual being (had divine nature) and He was eternally begotten before the world began.

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


Jesus existed before Abraham, He says He is I AM. I AM is God.

Exodus 3:14
"And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

John 8:58 "Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”


The Word became flesh.

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."


Mary, a human, is the Mother of Jesus the Word Incarnate and so Jesus now has both a divine nature and a human nature. Jesus is God, and Mary is Jesus' Mother, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. She is Mother of God the Son only, of course. She is not the Mother of God the Father and she is not the Mother of God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the one Mediator between God and Man because He is both God and Man. Jesus mediated our status from enemy of God due to Adam's sin to friend of God by His offering of Himself as the perfect sacrifice on the cross to atone for Adam's sin. [Romans 5]
I am aware of all of the scripture that you have so nicely referenced (above). Here is the question, "If there was no need for a "Christ saviour", where would that leave your 'understanding of God' ?" If there would have been no need for a Lamb, there would have been no need for a 'Mary'. Would Jesus not have still existed, as Lord of Hosts (the only begotten Son of God)?
  #15  
Old Jun 26, '09, 2:50 pm
SHW SHW is offline
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Default Re: Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

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Originally Posted by JonNC View Post
Does this answer my question above? Is her sinlessness something that makes her a better conveyor of grace than, say, you or me, or my pastor or your priest?Jon
Yes. The more sinless a person is, the more sanctifying graces he/she possesses. All righteous persons have sanctifying grace.

Once you have supernatural life, once sanctifying grace is in your soul, you can increase it by every supernaturally good action you do. A righteous person's prayers produce results. There is no person more righteous than a person who has not ever sinned.

James 5:16 "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."

1 Peter 3:12
"For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous,
And His ears are open to their prayers;
But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil.”


Mary gave us Jesus by her consent to the Will of God. No greater gift for man could ever be possible; she gave us the gift of the Savior for our redemption. Mary continues to be a conduit of God's graces because it is God's Will, but all of her graces come from God. We can do nothing apart from God's grace.

John 15:5
"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."
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