Should Catholics be concerned about animals?

[Ione]

Originally Posted by Marfran

I wish you could see the film. Sounds like you have real life experience on a pig farm. Maybe you could tell us a little about that. How you came to work there and how the experience affected you, or what you learned from it. And how your faith and Catholic values factor into the choice you have made not to eat meat.

I think a good way to learn about it is to watch HBO's documentary, Death On A Factory Farm. I think God places us where we need to be. He had a purpose for me (and he gave me a mouth that wouldn't shut up!) I think God intended us to be kind to all living beings. He's taught me other lessons as well thru the experience, maybe just for my benefit or maybe to pass on at some point down the line. I learned to hate but have since learned to forgive. It's wrong to carry hate in yourself and it's really wrong to take it out on someone or something else. One life isn't more important than another. The animals have much to give too(and I don't mean their flesh). I can't reason taking a precious life to please my tastebuds, there is nothing to support doing that except selfishness. And I still eat eggs and dairy and as long as I do I consider myself a selfish person as well. I don't think God wants us to be selfish. So that is something that I am working on. It's kind of like God puts it in front of us and says, what will you do with it, and this isn't only with animals, it is with many situations, and then we make the choice to do good or not do good. Alot of times I think to myself, would I see Jesus doing this? Or saying this? How would he act in the same situation. I doubt he ever said things like, yeah I got a taste for steak and I'm gonna have it, cause I can! Seems some have the attitude of God put it there for me so I'm gonna use it and abuse it, it's my right. They forget that it's also their responsibility to take care of it, whether the earth or an animal or whatever. And the only support I see in favor of eating meat is that it was eaten by Jesus and by others in his day. But it was done in a totally different way. No one that I know of sat and bragged that they were eating a piece of meat cause God intended it to be that way. And just because it was done in Jesus' time doesn't mean we have to still do it. It seems we all just pick and choose what we want to follow out of the bible. Jesus didn't have a car, he walked. Are they going to give up their cars too? Things were alot different in Jesus' time than they are now. I think what he really wants is for us to quit with all the hate and greed. There are plenty of people who can quote the bible but there are few who live it. I think it's more about who you are and how you behave. Are you loving or hateful, giving or selfish. Will you sacrifice to help something or someone else? Are you able to put something or someone else first and care for them before caring for your own needs and wants? Sure I'd like to have some ice cream but I'm sure that cow would love to have her calf(her baby) and also have her life. Isn't that more important than me wanting a bowl of ice cream? How can one even compare? A bowl of ice cream or a life? (I think I just talked myself into finally being vegan)

[Marfran]

Originally Posted by 4elise

7. Care for God’s Creation
We show our respect for the Creator by our stewardship of creation. Care for the earth is not just an Earth Day slogan, it is a requirement of our faith. We are called to protect people and the planet, living our faith in relationship with all of God’s creation. This environmental challenge has fundamental moral and ethical dimensions that cannot be ignored. Stewardship is our understanding of our role with the gift of creation. As stewards we must ensure that animals are treated as living beings – (easy for most to agree with when talking about puppies and kittens but less so for chickens, pigs, cows…. ) and that our limited resources are protected for all.

Injured Nestling

This evening I was just finishing up making dinner when the phone rang. It was a neighbor calling for my help. She had found an injured, flightless nestling on the sidewalk in front of her house. I left my dinner yet to be served, and ran over with a towel and the animal transport container that I carry in my car for emergencies.

The parents chirped at and scolded me (or maybe they were pleading for me to hurry up and help). They flew back and forth--the two cardinals, the brilliant red male, and the softer brown female. I picked up their little baby and examined him. A very long gash on his underside, exposing muscle. I could see the movement of his beating heart below the naked muscle.

My neighbor friend was puzzled. That's not a cardinal is it? No, I said, it's a cowbird. (Cowbirds are nomadic birds that lay their eggs in other bird's nests.They are parasitic brooders. Their young are raised by mothers of other species.)

These cardinals had no idea that this was not their biological baby, and were distressed at its predicament.

As I was telling my neighbor friend that she did a good thing by calling me, and that I would run the bird over to the local wildlife rehab--a butterfly landed on her shoulder. Oh, you have a butterfly on your shoulder! I said, while I held the little injured bird against my chest, feeling his gentle struggle against my fingers.

On the drive in the car to the wildlife rehab, I thought about all of these discussions and arguments on these CAF threads. The meaning of dominion, stewardship, the idea that animals are here to serve us (?), that we are so much more important than they are, that no one cares about the life of a cow or a sow or a chicken... and here I am running off without serving dinner, using gasoline in my car, losing an hour of my day...all for one little bird.

This is God's little bird who would not have survived his injuries if left alone. He would have suffered for perhaps hours, his parents helpless to render aid, and distressed to see their baby struggle. They would have flown at every predator, but in the end nature would cruelly take his life.

But I came along, a big important human being, and set my life aside for this tiny bird that the world would not miss, but that I know is loved by God.

Am I sentimental? Impractical? Emotional? Ruled by my heart? Should I spend more time thinking of how I can help people, because only people matter?

Ruled by my heart, yes I am. I put my life momentarily on hold to grant mercy and aid to an injured creature that had no important role in my life. And I will do the same for every creature and every human that I encounter on my journey here that needs my help, mercy, understanding or aid.

[4elise]

Originally Posted by Ione

I think a good way to learn about it is to watch HBO's documentary, Death On A Factory Farm. I think God places us where we need to be. ....

(I think I just talked myself into finally being vegan)

Well welcome on board! --- I know that some of the stuff I learned I really didn't want to know just then, it would be easier not to know that commercial fishing is creating so much pollution - because if I didn't know it I could still go have a filet of fish.

After a couple of years at this it has gotten much easier - just had a bowl of soy ice cream with a vegan cookie... not missing anything... and not feeling like I am contributing to the problem.

Peace and all good!

[Marfran]

Originally Posted by Ione

It's kind of like God puts it in front of us and says, what will you do with it, and this isn't only with animals, it is with many situations, and then we make the choice to do good or not do good. Alot of times I think to myself, would I see Jesus doing this? Or saying this? How would he act in the same situation. I doubt he ever said things like, yeah I got a taste for steak and I'm gonna have it, cause I can! Seems some have the attitude of God put it there for me so I'm gonna use it and abuse it, it's my right. They forget that it's also their responsibility to take care of it, whether the earth or an animal or whatever... Things were alot different in Jesus' time than they are now. I think what he really wants is for us to quit with all the hate and greed. There are plenty of people who can quote the bible but there are few who live it. I think it's more about who you are and how you behave. Are you loving or hateful, giving or selfish. Will you sacrifice to help something or someone else? Are you able to put something or someone else first and care for them before caring for your own needs and wants? Sure I'd like to have some ice cream but I'm sure that cow would love to have her calf(her baby) and also have her life. Isn't that more important than me wanting a bowl of ice cream? How can one even compare? A bowl of ice cream or a life? (I think I just talked myself into finally being vegan)

FABULOUS POST!

[4elise]

Originally Posted by Ione

I think a good way to learn about it is to watch HBO's documentary, Death On A Factory Farm. I think God places us where we need to be. ....

(I think I just talked myself into finally being vegan)

Well welcome on board! --- I know that some of the stuff I learned I really didn't want to know just then, it would be easier not to know that commercial fishing is creating so much pollution - because if I didn't know it I could still go have a filet of fish.

After a couple of years at this it has gotten much easier - just had a bowl of soy ice cream with a vegan cookie... not missing anything... and not feeling like I am contributing to the problem.

Peace and all good!

[4elise]

[quote=Marfran
Ruled by my heart, yes I am. I put my life momentarily on hold to grant mercy and aid to an injured creature that had no important role in my life. And I will do the same for every creature and every human that I encounter on my journey here that needs my help, mercy, understanding or aid.[/QUOTE]

Beautiful Marfran -

Christ has no body now but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours.
Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world,
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which he blesses all the world.
St. Teresa Of Avila

Peace

[4elise]

I think that most people in the US do care about animals - as long as they are 'cute' part of our tradition of 'pets' ----

IF one is willing to eat an animal then maybe it is easier to justify doing just about anything to them - if not then someone might have to examine a most basic issue of 'what's for dinner?'.

I know that there is no 'Catholic teaching' on not eating meat - but for me - it is Catholic teaching that has caused me to adopt a vegan diet. it just made sense !

[4elise]

Originally Posted by Ione

(I think I just talked myself into finally being vegan)

So... how's that going? thanks for joining Catholic Vegetarians and Vegan group here at CAF - we are all learning together --- anyone else who might also learn about this is welcome to drop by too!

Amazingly we are now the most active group here on CAF!

[GEddie]

Originally Posted by Ione

And the only support I see in favor of eating meat is that it was eaten by Jesus and by others in his day. But it was done in a totally different way. No one that I know of sat and bragged that they were eating a piece of meat cause God intended it to be that way. And just because it was done in Jesus' time doesn't mean we have to still do it. It seems we all just pick and choose what we want to follow out of the bible. Jesus didn't have a car, he walked. Are they going to give up their cars too? Things were alot different in Jesus' time than they are now.

I have NEVER heard anybody "brag" about eating meat because "God intended it to be that way."

And things WERE different for our LORD, but we are not talking about technology (which was the same as His until about 1800); we are considering right and wrong. When someone implies that something that was right for HIM becomes wrong for us, aren't they suggesting that we can *improve* on Him (that His morality was not *good enough*)?? I sure don't want to go there.


God bless you all and ICXC NIKA. I probably won't post in this thread again.

[4elise]

Originally Posted by GEddie

I have NEVER heard anybody "brag" about eating meat because "God intended it to be that way."

And things WERE different for our LORD, but we are not talking about technology (which was the same as His until about 1800); we are considering right and wrong. When someone implies that something that was right for HIM becomes wrong for us, aren't they suggesting that we can *improve* on Him (that His morality was not *good enough*)?? I sure don't want to go there.


God bless you all and ICXC NIKA. I probably won't post in this thread again.

I think when people suggest that we do something different than Jesus did when he walked the earth it may have more to do with the different times we live in - our food comes to us in different ways, we get around in different ways, we don't live as He did, we have indoor plumbing - this isn't to put morality on indoor plumbing - but to cause us to consider that given the change in the way food is produced TODAY - perhaps people of faith should consider this as a moral issue.

[Ione]

Originally Posted by 4elise

So... how's that going? thanks for joining Catholic Vegetarians and Vegan group here at CAF - we are all learning together --- anyone else who might also learn about this is welcome to drop by too!

Amazingly we are now the most active group here on CAF!

I think there are probably still things I'm eating that have dairy in them. I know when I read the labels I was surprised to find alot of things had dairy in them. Sometimes you don't realize you are eating it! I looked at the milk on the shelf the other day at the store, it was cheaper than the soy and then I said "no", don't need it! I couldn't afford the soy so I didn't get any. I've been using margarine instead of butter for awhile now. I'm still buying eggs, which is a big no no. I used to buy from the Amish farms and should really look for farms in this area that sell them if I'm going to eat them. I'm still undecided on the egg thing as someone said that it really isn't a chick until it's fertilized. I understand about the thing of not buying them because of the factory farms and that is my reasoning in buying from small family farms. I read once that vegans don't care if you eat eggs from small independent farms as long as you don't buy them. Not sure how much of that is true
Other than that though, I think I am doing pretty well with it. There are alot of things I would have picked up at the store before but am not buying now. I really don't miss alot of things. I used to eat the soy ice cream but I couldn't afford to buy it now so I'll just go without. I eat boca burgers and boca chicken patties for my main protein. I'm not all the way vegan yet but I'm getting there little by little!

[Ione]

Originally Posted by GEddie

I have NEVER heard anybody "brag" about eating meat because "God intended it to be that way."

And things WERE different for our LORD, but we are not talking about technology (which was the same as His until about 1800); we are considering right and wrong. When someone implies that something that was right for HIM becomes wrong for us, aren't they suggesting that we can *improve* on Him (that His morality was not *good enough*)?? I sure don't want to go there.


God bless you all and ICXC NIKA. I probably won't post in this thread again.

I have NEVER heard anybody "brag" about eating meat because "God intended it to be that way."

I could go thru alot of the posts in the animals threads and quote people but it would take too long. Go thru the threads and you'll see for yourself.

When someone implies that something that was right for HIM becomes wrong for us,

Like I said, then driving cars, having fancy homes, jewelry, etc. etc. would be wrong. If eating meat was right for HIM than eating meat, having no car, no fancy home, on and on should be right for you too. You're only picking the things to do that you want that benefit your desires.

[Marfran]

Originally Posted by GEddie

When someone implies that something that was right for HIM becomes wrong for us, aren't they suggesting that we can *improve* on Him (that His morality was not *good enough*)?? I sure don't want to go there.

Jesus did not participate in the eating of factory farmed animal products. This is NEW to our times, and calls us modern folk to take a long, hard look at what we are doing. Jesus may have eaten fish on occassion, and may have eaten lamb once a year--that is so not the picture of the modern Westerner's diet.

[4elise]

Originally Posted by Ione

I think there are probably still things I'm eating that have dairy in them. I know when I read the labels I was surprised to find alot of things had dairy in them. Sometimes you don't realize you are eating it! I looked at the milk on the shelf the other day at the store, it was cheaper than the soy and then I said "no", don't need it! I couldn't afford the soy so I didn't get any. I've been using margarine instead of butter for awhile now. I'm still buying eggs, which is a big no no. I used to buy from the Amish farms and should really look for farms in this area that sell them if I'm going to eat them. I'm still undecided on the egg thing as someone said that it really isn't a chick until it's fertilized. I understand about the thing of not buying them because of the factory farms and that is my reasoning in buying from small family farms. I read once that vegans don't care if you eat eggs from small independent farms as long as you don't buy them. Not sure how much of that is true
Other than that though, I think I am doing pretty well with it. There are alot of things I would have picked up at the store before but am not buying now. I really don't miss alot of things. I used to eat the soy ice cream but I couldn't afford to buy it now so I'll just go without. I eat boca burgers and boca chicken patties for my main protein. I'm not all the way vegan yet but I'm getting there little by little!

It is a matter of awareness, than it becomes a willingness to connect the dots and make changes in our lives -- I think it is the counter cultural issue to believe that it does matter.

P.S. -- Don't forget about some of the really inexpensive proteins - beans! You can also make your own black bean and brown rice burgers, much cheaper (and better) than boca burgers! --- but really boca burgers are so good and easy! (we like the Amy vege burgers better) - also TVP - amazing substitute for ground beef / turkey / chicken ---- and healthy!

[JaneGrey]

Originally Posted by Ione

I think a good way to learn about it is to watch HBO's documentary, Death On A Factory Farm. I think God places us where we need to be. He had a purpose for me (and he gave me a mouth that wouldn't shut up!) I think God intended us to be kind to all living beings. He's taught me other lessons as well thru the experience, maybe just for my benefit or maybe to pass on at some point down the line. I learned to hate but have since learned to forgive. It's wrong to carry hate in yourself and it's really wrong to take it out on someone or something else. One life isn't more important than another. The animals have much to give too(and I don't mean their flesh). I can't reason taking a precious life to please my tastebuds, there is nothing to support doing that except selfishness. And I still eat eggs and dairy and as long as I do I consider myself a selfish person as well. I don't think God wants us to be selfish. So that is something that I am working on. It's kind of like God puts it in front of us and says, what will you do with it, and this isn't only with animals, it is with many situations, and then we make the choice to do good or not do good. Alot of times I think to myself, would I see Jesus doing this? Or saying this? How would he act in the same situation. I doubt he ever said things like, yeah I got a taste for steak and I'm gonna have it, cause I can! Seems some have the attitude of God put it there for me so I'm gonna use it and abuse it, it's my right. They forget that it's also their responsibility to take care of it, whether the earth or an animal or whatever. And the only support I see in favor of eating meat is that it was eaten by Jesus and by others in his day. But it was done in a totally different way. No one that I know of sat and bragged that they were eating a piece of meat cause God intended it to be that way. And just because it was done in Jesus' time doesn't mean we have to still do it. It seems we all just pick and choose what we want to follow out of the bible. Jesus didn't have a car, he walked. Are they going to give up their cars too? Things were alot different in Jesus' time than they are now. I think what he really wants is for us to quit with all the hate and greed. There are plenty of people who can quote the bible but there are few who live it. I think it's more about who you are and how you behave. Are you loving or hateful, giving or selfish. Will you sacrifice to help something or someone else? Are you able to put something or someone else first and care for them before caring for your own needs and wants? Sure I'd like to have some ice cream but I'm sure that cow would love to have her calf(her baby) and also have her life. Isn't that more important than me wanting a bowl of ice cream? How can one even compare? A bowl of ice cream or a life? (I think I just talked myself into finally being vegan)

I love your post and agree with it fully. A mouthful of bacon or steak is simply not worth the prolonged pain and suffering the animals experience.