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  #1  
Old Jul 8, '09, 12:36 pm
Lisa44 Lisa44 is offline
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Default Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

Hi,
I ask this because I always hear Catholics accusing Protestants of picking and choosing what they want out of the bible.
I get that.
But, what about Catholics?
Lets take the example of head covering. The bible says women should cover their heads but Catholics feel its not necessary so they dont. - is that picking and choosing?

Another example - Jesus says to eat his body and drink his blood. The Catholic church decided its ok under one species. - is that picking and choosing?

Can we not accuse ourselves of this also?
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  #2  
Old Jul 8, '09, 12:44 pm
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Scoobyshme Scoobyshme is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

Lisa,

The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament and chose the Septuagent version of the Old Testament to be in the Bible. It is the Catholic Church that preceeded the Bible. Why do you seem so Bible-centric vs. Church-centric? Did Jesus write a book, or did He found a Church, to teach His truths? He founded a Church. And, trained 12 Apostles to spread His truth by preaching and teaching others. The Apostles, and their successors have been doing so for 2000 years. The Church only defined the canon of the Bible in the fourth century, long after the Church had been operating and growing.

The covered head thing is not doctrine. It's discipline. And, the Church has always taught that both the Body and Blood of our Lord contain both. So, when we receive the Host, we are getting both the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. Likewise when we receive the Wine.

The problem with Protestants, in general, is that by design, they must continually splinter into more and more denominations. Why? Because they operate based on two doctrines that Martin Luther made up out of thin air, namely, Sola Fide (we are saved by faith alone) and Sola Scriptura (that the Bible is the sole rule of faith). NEITHER are supported by the Bible. The only authentic interpreter of the Bible is the Catholic Church, which wrote the New Testament and assembled the Bible under one cover in the fourth century. (See the Councils of Hippo (393 A.D.) and Carthage (397 A.D.)). The truth can never contradict itself. IF there were any truth to Protestantism, there would be only one Protestant denomination, not 30,000+ and counting.
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  #3  
Old Jul 8, '09, 12:51 pm
Le Cracquere Le Cracquere is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

Well, sort of apples and oranges there. If the Catholic Church is what it claims to be, then it's sort of entitled to pick and choose. Hope the Catholics here will correct me if I misstate anything, but believe that the Catholics' definition of their Church implies a charism that empowers it to interpret (or pick and choose, if you will) the Bible and Christian doctrine infallibly (or almost infallibly w/r/t certain doctrinal details? RCC input needed).

Anyway, this Protestant can't fault the Catholic Church for "picking and choosing," if her self-definition turns out to be accurate.
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  #4  
Old Jul 8, '09, 2:46 pm
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Mannyfit75 Mannyfit75 is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa44 View Post
Hi,
I ask this because I always hear Catholics accusing Protestants of picking and choosing what they want out of the bible.
I get that.
But, what about Catholics?
Lets take the example of head covering. The bible says women should cover their heads but Catholics feel its not necessary so they dont. - is that picking and choosing?

Another example - Jesus says to eat his body and drink his blood. The Catholic church decided its ok under one species. - is that picking and choosing?

Can we not accuse ourselves of this also?
Not really. The difference between Protestant interpretation of Scripture vs. Catholic interpretation, is that when Catholic interprets the Bible there is a unity in all. Many of the Catholic apologists advised Catholics who want to dig into Apologetics have to pray and mediate, and to read the entire passage of Scripture.

For example, a Protestant might throw you a Bible verse like, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5, and by this passage alone. They can interpret that. "See you cannot pray to the saints and Mary. There is only one mediator Jesus."

Well, is that what the entire passage trying to say? Let's take a closer look.

Let us start with 2 Timothy 2:1-7. If you want you can continue to read the entire chapter.

Here is the verse.

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made to all men for kings and all who are in high position, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly, and respectful in everyway. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God Our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth."

Paul here urges all to become intercessioners in Christ Jesus and urge leaders of high position to do the same.

This is just one passage that supports that veneration of the saints and have them pray us is "acceptible" to God.
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  #5  
Old Jul 8, '09, 6:42 pm
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JRKH JRKH is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa44 View Post
Hi,
I ask this because I always hear Catholics accusing Protestants of picking and choosing what they want out of the bible.
I get that.
But, what about Catholics?
Lets take the example of head covering. The bible says women should cover their heads but Catholics feel its not necessary so they dont. - is that picking and choosing?

Another example - Jesus says to eat his body and drink his blood. The Catholic church decided its ok under one species. - is that picking and choosing?

Can we not accuse ourselves of this also?
Some great answers already.
In your first example, are we "picking and choosing a doctrine or a practice"? Doctrine will not change, practice can.
In the second example, can we split Jesus' body blood soul and divinity out? Can one recieve only "part of Jesus" by receiving under only one species? Of course not. Jesus is complety contained in each, so receiving only one is sufficiant.
See the logic in these things?
This is really how the Church works and it is why it works so well.
Christ Founded a Church - A Church with Authority - A Church able to bind and loose whatever. The Church wrote the NT and assembled the Canon of the Bible. Thus the Bible is a "subset" of the Church's Tradition and not the other way around.
So one should not try to measure the whole of "The Church" against that one part of the Church called The Bible.

Peace
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  #6  
Old Jul 8, '09, 7:00 pm
tobinatorstark tobinatorstark is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa44 View Post
Hi,
I ask this because I always hear Catholics accusing Protestants of picking and choosing what they want out of the bible.
I get that.
But, what about Catholics?
Lets take the example of head covering. The bible says women should cover their heads but Catholics feel its not necessary so they dont. - is that picking and choosing?

Another example - Jesus says to eat his body and drink his blood. The Catholic church decided its ok under one species. - is that picking and choosing?

Can we not accuse ourselves of this also?
There are some people who try to excercise "Cafeteria Catholicism", yet it isn't quite acceptable
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  #7  
Old Jul 8, '09, 7:04 pm
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Mannyfit75 Mannyfit75 is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobinatorstark View Post
There are some people who try to excercise "Cafeteria Catholicism", yet it isn't quite acceptable
Caferia Catholicism aka hypocrites.. They are just sorry..excuse for a Catholics.
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"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
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  #8  
Old Jul 8, '09, 9:59 pm
diggerdomer diggerdomer is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa44 View Post
Hi,
I ask this because I always hear Catholics accusing Protestants of picking and choosing what they want out of the bible.
I get that.
But, what about Catholics?
Lets take the example of head covering. The bible says women should cover their heads but Catholics feel its not necessary so they dont. - is that picking and choosing?

Another example - Jesus says to eat his body and drink his blood. The Catholic church decided its ok under one species. - is that picking and choosing?

Can we not accuse ourselves of this also?
Different Christians interpret Biblical passages differently. I think that's a better way to look at it rather than saying one or more groups "pick and choose."
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  #9  
Old Jul 9, '09, 3:22 pm
Lisa44 Lisa44 is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

Hi
Ok, good answers.
So, what you're all saying is that because the Catholic Church is the organizer of the entire Christian faith, be it disciplines or scripture, it can interpret the disciplines or the application of scripture as it sees fit?

For instance head covering. The apostle Paul said women "should" cover their heads but the Church, ie its leaders the Pope or Bishops, can decide if Paul should be heeded or not on this instance, because the "church" is the one that determines how to apply the "advice" of the apostle.

Is that correct?

It's a bit weird because it seperates the church from the apostle who is also the church right? So its like the apostle says to cover, and the other members of the church say you don't have to. So in effect, the church then becomes two different voices. One saying to cover and the others saying don't worry, no need.

In respects to the body and blood of Jesus. Well, I could put it the same way. Jesus is the church too. And if he wanted people to eat his body OR drink his blood wouldn't he not have said that: OR?

I'm just asking why there has to be different voices. What is wrong with the voice of Jesus or the voice of the apsotle that it has to be re-interpreted by modern church officials?


I'm not trying to be overly critical or anything I am just wanting to understand.
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  #10  
Old Jul 9, '09, 3:35 pm
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AmbroseSJ AmbroseSJ is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

The difference between the Protestant and Catholic interpretation of the Bible comes down to Authority. The Catholic Church has the authority from Jesus Christ to preach His Word. The Protestants rejected that authority and raised up their own "private judgment" authority. It is that private judgment authority which you refer to as picking and choosing. The Catholic Church does not pick and choose, but rather teaches with the Authority of Jesus Christ. It may, on the surface, seem similar, but it is as different as East is from West.
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  #11  
Old Jul 9, '09, 3:38 pm
cazayoux cazayoux is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa44 View Post
In respects to the body and blood of Jesus. Well, I could put it the same way. Jesus is the church too. And if he wanted people to eat his body OR drink his blood wouldn't he not have said that: OR?
It's an AND.

The church teaches that the eucharistic host received at mass contains the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ.

The church teaches that the eucharistic wine received at mass contains the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ.

So you still receive Jesus' body AND blood, even if you only consume the host.

michel
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  #12  
Old Jul 9, '09, 3:52 pm
cazayoux cazayoux is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa44 View Post
I'm just asking why there has to be different voices. What is wrong with the voice of Jesus or the voice of the apsotle that it has to be re-interpreted by modern church officials?


... I am just wanting to understand.
The voice of Jesus tells us that he created a church and gave it the power to bind and loose.
The church had this authority before one word of scripture was ever written. The church Jesus founded still has that same authority.

This topic is not a 're'-interpretation.


Scripture also says that almsgiving a good and wholesome thing.
However, the Church no longer allows this as part of a penance, because of past abuses on both sides of the confessional. (one of the trigger issues for the reformation).
The Church no longer having this practice, in no way means that almsgiving is no longer good and wholesome.

I agree with scripture and the Church in the case of headcovering and alsmgiving.

michel
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  #13  
Old Jul 9, '09, 3:52 pm
Philthy Philthy is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa44
Hi,I ask this because I always hear Catholics accusing Protestants of picking and choosing what they want out of the bible.I get that.
But, what about Catholics?
Lets take the example of head covering. The bible says women should cover their heads but Catholics feel its not necessary so they dont. - is that picking and choosing?
Nope. The bible doesnt "say" that women should cover their heads, the bible records that St Paul said that women should cover their heads. The bible doesnt record that St Paul said this teaching is meant to apply for all time. His Apostolic authority ended with his death and was assumed by another bishop. At some point in time the idea of needing to cover ones head was deemed obsolete by the person with the authority to do so.
Quote:
Another example - Jesus says to eat his body and drink his blood. The Catholic church decided its ok under one species. - is that picking and choosing?
Can we not accuse ourselves of this also?
This is missing the forest for the trees. The important thing is that he said "This IS my body..." not merely a symbol of it...
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  #14  
Old Jul 9, '09, 4:06 pm
Philthy Philthy is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa44;
Ok, good answers.
So, what you're all saying is that because the Catholic Church is the organizer of the entire Christian faith, be it disciplines or scripture, it can interpret the disciplines or the application of scripture as it sees fit?
Yes, by the power given to the Church by Christ through the wisdom granted by the Holy Spirit. Its even more awesome though - the Church was granted the wisdom to decide which writings were to be admitted to the Bible! There was no Bible until the Church revealed it in the 4th century. The same Church which revealed it to us reveals what the intended meanings of Scripture is...

Quote:
It's a bit weird because it seperates the church from the apostle who is also the church right?
No, not right. Altering the discipline of covering one's head 1900 years ago does not separate us from St Paul; we remain united in the Body of Christ. Trust me, where Paul is he couldnt care less about head coverings...does that separate him from himself?

Quote:
I'm just asking why there has to be different voices. What is wrong with the voice of Jesus or the voice of the apsotle that it has to be re-interpreted by modern church officials?
Jesus is no longer on earth speaking to us. In his wisdom He left a Church guided by the Holy Spirit to lead the faithful. Why did he do it this way? He didnt bother mention that either...

Quote:
I'm not trying to be overly critical or anything I am just wanting to understand.
I think you are asking good questions! Much of what you ask will be answered by the question, "How do I know the Bible is the word of God?"
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  #15  
Old Jul 9, '09, 5:38 pm
diggerdomer diggerdomer is offline
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Default Re: Protestants pick and choose, does the Catholic church pick and choose?

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[color=Navy] There was no Bible until the Church revealed it in the 4th century.
Not true. The Bible predated Christianity vis-a-vis what Christians now refer to as the Old Testament aka the Hebrew or Jewish Scriptures.

Also, the writings of the Apostles (later known as the New Testament) were routinely used and considered Scripture by Christians well before the 4th century.
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