Pope Endorses "World Political Authority" - Page 15

wisdomseeker · #**211** Jul 21, '09, 5:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillieWonka

You think the US bishops are the most informed people in the US? US bishops are better informed about the US economy than Goldman or the econ faculty at Chicago?

why do you keep referring to the priests and bishops? the CC is much bigger than you will ever know. do you know what the CC is? it is the new Israel. we are a nation spreaded throughtout the world, a Kingdom where Jesus is the King and the pope the prime minister. we have business organizations. we have scientists. we have the bests universities. we the best schools. we have great artists. we have economists. we have much of everything in the world. we have hte greatest painters. the greatest musicians. we have the best charities organizations, and so forth. ........ i could go on and on. i dont say this with pride but with great humility because this all belongs to Christ through His Church.

"But all did not obey the Gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our report?"
Romans 10:16

WillieWonka · #**212** Jul 21, '09, 7:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisdomseeker

why do you keep referring to the priests and bishops? the CC is much bigger than you will ever know. do you know what the CC is? it is the new Israel. we are a nation spreaded throughtout the world, a Kingdom where Jesus is the King and the pope the prime minister. we have business organizations. we have scientists. we have the bests universities. we the best schools. we have great artists. we have economists. we have much of everything in the world. we have hte greatest painters. the greatest musicians. we have the best charities organizations, and so forth. ........ i could go on and on. i dont say this with pride but with great humility because this all belongs to Christ through His Church.

"But all did not obey the Gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our report?"
Romans 10:16

Many people in many walks of life are Catholics. And they have certainly attained great heights. That hardly means the Vatican is the beneficiary of all that talent and information.The information is widely dispersed among Catholics, just as it is widely dispersed in the general population.

One could take any large group and claim it has the same infomation and talent. However, none of them have a mechanism to channel it all into one place where all that data can be turned into information.

The issue isn't whether Catholics are talented, learned, and productive. It's whether the Vatican has better information than the rest of the world.

nablaise · #**213** Jul 21, '09, 8:49 pm

[quote=Cheerleader;5471073]You specifically highlighted certain areas of the Pope's encyclical which you thought were important. What do you suppose the Pope meant when he said "the human race is a single family working together in true communion"?

QUOTE]

Well, I found the Encyclical great. It is a modern great teaching of the Christian Faith.
If you are troubled by one or two words. Perhaps you could find comfort that even Jesus troubled some with his choice of words to the point that they accused him of blasphemy and all other insult that you are probably aware of.

You asks me what I think the pope meant by : "the human race is a single family working together in true communion"

1. Let's not take things out of context. At least the original phrase is: The development of peoples depends, above all, on a recognition that the human race is a single family working together in true communion, not simply a group of subjects who happen to live side by side[127]. It is a quote from JPII Evangelium vitae.

I had highlighted the words 'single family' because this is at the foundation of Christianity. We believe that we are all from the same man Adam. The word 'family' is also very important. For a Christian it should remind us of the Trinity. That the fact that we are made in the image of God implies that just as God is a communion, so is humanity.
I don't have to recall that the Church was sent to ALL men, all nations to convert them to Christ.
And what the Pope is doing in the letter is not just commenting on world economy, he is telling everyone that "there is no salvation except in the name of Jesus".
In other words. He is saying that the world can never be stable unless it adopts a Christian understanding of reality: that we are called to live a single family working together toward a true communion.

2. The pope also used the word 'true' in his call for a 'true world political authority". He is not just calling for a world political authority, but for a true one. I am sure you understand that assuming that the pope means by 'true' the Christian understanding of authority is most reasonable. It is for this that I had also quoted his teaching on the Holy Trinity, they speak alot about the pope concept of authority and human coexistance.

3. Well, if it would help you. Below is a quote the Pope made few weeks before realising the encyclical. He was talking about 'true authority". He was quoting an ancient theologian.

Quote:

From this perspective, he writes: "Any type of authority that is not confirmed by true reason should be considered weak. … Only that authority is true that coincides with the truth discovered in virtue of reason, even if it is an authority recommended and transmitted for the usefulness of coming generations by the holy fathers" (I, PL 122, col 513BC). Thus he cautions, "May no authority frighten you or distract you from what you understand from the persuasion obtained thanks to an upright rational contemplation. In fact, authentic authority does not contradict right reason, and the latter never contradicts true authority. Both one and the other proceed without a doubt from the same source, which is divine wisdom" (I, PL 122, col 511B). We see here a courageous affirmation of the value of reason, founded on the certainty that true authority is reasonable, given that God is creative reason.

I understand that one may be able to skips parts in CV. But I think that it is commonsense that if one find a particular passage hard to undersand, he should try to discover the context.

Cheerleader · #**214** Jul 21, '09, 10:56 pm

[quote=nablaise;5472269]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerleader

You specifically highlighted certain areas of the Pope's encyclical which you thought were important. What do you suppose the Pope meant when he said "the human race is a single family working together in true communion"?

QUOTE]

Well, I found the Encyclical great. It is a modern great teaching of the Christian Faith.
If you are troubled by one or two words. Perhaps you could find comfort that even Jesus troubled some with his choice of words to the point that they accused him of blasphemy and all other insult that you are probably aware of.

You asks me what I think the pope meant by : "the human race is a single family working together in true communion"

1. Let's not take things out of context. At least the original phrase is: The development of peoples depends, above all, on a recognition that the human race is a single family working together in true communion, not simply a group of subjects who happen to live side by side[127]. It is a quote from JPII Evangelium vitae.

I had highlighted the words 'single family' because this is at the foundation of Christianity. We believe that we are all from the same man Adam. The word 'family' is also very important. For a Christian it should remind us of the Trinity. That the fact that we are made in the image of God implies that just as God is a communion, so is humanity.
I don't have to recall that the Church was sent to ALL men, all nations to convert them to Christ.
And what the Pope is doing in the letter is not just commenting on world economy, he is telling everyone that "there is no salvation except in the name of Jesus".
In other words. He is saying that the world can never be stable unless it adopts a Christian understanding of reality: that we are called to live a single family working together toward a true communion.

2. The pope also used the word 'true' in his call for a 'true world political authority". He is not just calling for a world political authority, but for a true one. I am sure you understand that assuming that the pope means by 'true' the Christian understanding of authority is most reasonable. It is for this that I had also quoted his teaching on the Holy Trinity, they speak alot about the pope concept of authority and human coexistance.

3. Well, if it would help you. Below is a quote the Pope made few weeks before realising the encyclical. He was talking about 'true authority". He was quoting an ancient theologian.

I understand that one may be able to skips parts in CV. But I think that it is commonsense that if one find a particular passage hard to undersand, he should try to discover the context.

How can it be that the human race is working together in "true communion"? Are Hindus, Zoarastrians, Muslims, Rosacrutians, Jews, Protestants, Satanists, Buddists, and Catholics, etc. all working together in "true communion"? I still don't know how you or anyone including the Pope is using the words "true communion". Especially, coming from the Chair of Saint Peter "true communion" are powerful words. The only truth to me is Jesus Christ. Not the truth of Hindus, Buddists or whoever. All are called and welcome to the joy of true communion that is to live in true communion with Jesus Christ without compromise of other gods. But that is not how the world is! So many reject Our Lord Jesus Christ and that is why for whatever excuse economics, environmentalism, etc., we cannot and should not live with a world political authority.

The additional quote you gave me to read makes the writer sound like a global politician rather than the Leader of the Catholic Church.

It is of my humble opinion, that if the Pope means Christian he should say Christian. If he means Jesus Christ, then he should say Jesus Christ and not use words to placate all of society.

If the Pope or the "world political authority" endorsed by the Pope called for a one world religion, would you obediantly follow?

And lastly, how does one discuss a lengthy encyclical without pointing out the phrase, sentence, text whatever that is in question?

nablaise · #**215** Jul 22, '09, 12:31 am

Quote:

How can it be that the human race is working together in "true communion"?

If the human race was working together in true communion, there would be complete unity in the world already. And there would be this authority the Pope is calling for, therefore, the Pope would not have called for it.

Our God is a God of order. His Logos put order in the universe. The pope is telling us that we can't work in chaos, we need 'Christian humanism' to put order in the world.

nablaise · #**216** Jul 22, '09, 1:38 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerleader

How can it be that the human race is working together in "true communion"? Are Hindus, Zoarastrians, Muslims, Rosacrutians, Jews, Protestants, Satanists, Buddists, and Catholics, etc. all working together in "true communion"? I still don't know how you or anyone including the Pope is using the words "true communion". Especially, coming from the Chair of Saint Peter "true communion" are powerful words. The only truth to me is Jesus Christ. Not the truth of Hindus, Buddists or whoever. All are called and welcome to the joy of true communion that is to live in true communion with Jesus Christ without compromise of other gods. But that is not how the world is! So many reject Our Lord Jesus Christ and that is why for whatever excuse economics, environmentalism, etc., we cannot and should not live with a world political authority.

The additional quote you gave me to read makes the writer sound like a global politician rather than the Leader of the Catholic Church.

It is of my humble opinion, that if the Pope means Christian he should say Christian. If he means Jesus Christ, then he should say Jesus Christ and not use words to placate all of society.

If the Pope or the "world political authority" endorsed by the Pope called for a one world religion, would you obediantly follow?

And lastly, how does one discuss a lengthy encyclical without pointing out the phrase, sentence, text whatever that is in question?

Do you know that Christ is both King and Priest? That also the Church is a royal-priesthood? Kingship is a political dimension...

You seem to be terrified of the idea of world unity as if it is necessary from the Devil.
The idea of unity seem to imply to you the 'NWO' and the 'world religion'. It does not seem to occur to you that the whole world is called to be Catholic and that this is the intention of the Pope. To convert all nations.

The Devil does not unite, he devides. From Eden, through Babel, to this day. The way he rules the world and will rule it is through a mob style governing. He rules through chaos.
The Pope is teaching everyone to be reasonable and recognize that there is order in values. In these troubled time, the Pope is telling everyone that the world can only be fixed by the King Jesus. That's basicaly what he is saying. You just don't want to see it because you seem to have your own predetermined notion of what is this authority. All this dispite that the Pope said that he has not technical solution to offer...

Well, the Devil will try everything but will not overcome Christ and his Church. He tries but will never succeed. His favorite and basic method is to get Christians to hate the Pope. This is how division in Christianity itself always come about. By separating them from the rock, he get free rule over them. The current spectacle of division in protestantism is to the glory of he Devil.

And in this economic crisis, many are confortable with things as they are. They see that things are wrong, but they can't dare think of a world authority because of their conceipt of authority. Of course, the world is here because of the world notion of authority. Well, this is not the Christian notion. Perhaps it can help to understand more about Christian understanding of authority. What does authority of Christ means to you? Christ as a King? Or perhaps you don't want to 'impose' your religion on other?

Christ does not impose his authority, yet he is an authority. All the Pope is doing is doing what St. Peter and others have done. Tell the world to accept Christ and be saved. Only the Pope is speaking a language they can begin to understand (many of world people don't have the world Christ in their vocaburary), leading them gently to the full truth, nursing them with milk before he give meat,....

I am sure there are many of the Bhoudists, and Muslims, etc who will hear the message and convert...because they would have read more in the letter than just one phrase. The Church have never stopped calling the nations to conversion, I am not sure why you seem to assume that the Pope is calling religions to unite!!!
You are so preocupied by the nwo that you don't seem to think about anything else in the Church's life in the world. Do you honestly think that that phrase that troubles you so much is completely disconnected from the rest of the document that it can be safely considered by itself???

Cheerleader · #**217** Jul 22, '09, 9:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by nablaise

If the human race was working together in true communion, there would be complete unity in the world already. And there would be this authority the Pope is calling for, therefore, the Pope would not have called for it.

Our God is a God of order. His Logos put order in the universe. The pope is telling us that we can't work in chaos, we need 'Christian humanism' to put order in the world.

He didn't say if the human race was working together in true communion, he said the human race is a single family working together in true communion.

Anyways, I appreciate your well written response. And of course I have so much more to discuss but do not have the time right now. Gotta go, and God bless everyone posting on this thread.

Liraco · #**218** Jul 22, '09, 10:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerleader

He didn't say if the human race was working together in true communion, he said the human race is a single family working together in true communion.

Are we not all brothers and sisters even if they reject our beliefs, or act as enemies toward us? Did Christ not come for ALL? Where does it say that Jesus only came to save a very select group of people instead? No, He DID come for everyone even if most reject Him. He died for all without exception, even those who come to reject Him.

So then, why do I still sense such fear from you? Fear is the tool of the enemy and you must be careful that all of these words you seem to have against the Pope aren't fueled by it. That's certainly the impression you give and I pray that is not the case and that God enlightens you.

You're still missing the point, and seem set on making a point of our Pope as a failure and getting into things he mustn't. It seems rather that you're seeing and reading things that aren't there, otherwise you would understand the true intention, the GOOD intention and message of this encyclical. Instead you continue to speak in fear of a "new world order" headed by our Pope. If only you would see the nonsense of this.

God bless you.

Matariel · #**219** Jul 22, '09, 9:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liraco

Are we not all brothers and sisters even if they reject our beliefs, or act as enemies toward us?

This is true. We are bound together in communion due to our very common humanity.

Nothing can change that. Even though we kill one another and hurt one another, we are all one family; we're all children of Adam.

Cheerleader · #**220** Jul 23, '09, 8:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matariel

This is true. We are bound together in communion due to our very common humanity.

Nothing can change that. Even though we kill one another and hurt one another, we are all one family; we're all children of Adam.

Spoken like a true member of say the Unitarian Universalist Church, maybe? Are you sure you're Catholic? Are you of the belief of George Bush when he said, "We all worship the same God?" Or the brood of vipers at the United Nations who are setting up a new world religion based on the new happy buzz word "Humanism"?

Because I am a follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I am instructed to follow the Commandments of our Father in Heaven, and as Jesus said, "to love one another as I have loved you." I do not live in true communion with those who hate the God of the Bible, but I am to love the sinner and hate the sin. And pray for the conversion of souls so that one day we will live together in true communion with Jesus Christ.

Liraco · #**221** Jul 23, '09, 9:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerleader

I do not live in true communion with those who hate the God of the Bible, but I am to love the sinner and hate the sin. And pray for the conversion of souls so that one day we will live together in true communion with Jesus Christ.

So then why all the hate and fear? We are indeed to love ALL, enemies included. You may deny it but your actions and reactions so far betray a lack of charity (towards those who don't agree with you and toward proper understanding).

If you really understood what the encyclical teaches and actually says, then you'd see that we're on the same side.

This long ago ceased to be a discussion and turned into an argument. There's no reason for all this fear nor for any fighting between us.

Cheerleader · #**222** Jul 23, '09, 12:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liraco

So then why all the hate and fear? We are indeed to love ALL, enemies included. You may deny it but your actions and reactions so far betray a lack of charity (towards those who don't agree with you and toward proper understanding).

If you really understood what the encyclical teaches and actually says, then you'd see that we're on the same side.

This long ago ceased to be a discussion and turned into an argument. There's no reason for all this fear nor for any fighting between us.

The topic of this thread is "Pope Endorses "World Political Authority". Am I only welcome here if I embrace the Pope's endorsemnet of this figure?

I have been studying the agenda of the global elitists to create a New World Order, a one world government with a one world religion for a long time. Their plans are quite scary to say the least. It was through my faith that I was brought to learn about this diabolical plan.

I believe in Charity whole-heartedly. I do not believe in charity through global socialism. It is through Charity that each of us individually are able to show God our love for Him and for our neighbor.

I often like to quote Ezekiel 33:6, "But if the watchman sees the enemy coming and doesn't sound the alarm to warn the people, he is responsible for their deaths." Because I have educated myself about this hope of the wicked and their master plan to rule the world, I feel it is my duty and an act of charity to warn others to be alert and pay attention.

In 2 Thessalonians, we are warned of an authority, the man of lawlessness, who will come to rule before Christ's return.

I spread no hate. On the contrary, I feel like the recipient of hate and have had my words and feelings about this matter distorted.

When I joined this forum, I chose the name Cheerleader. I'd like to consider myself a "Cheerleader for Jesus", as corny as it sounds, because I love Him so much. I am considering a name change though since I don't seem to be spreading much "cheer" as in "joy". I think more appropriately I should be named the "Watchman"

. I hope it hasn't been taken.

**pnewton** · #**223** Jul 23, '09, 12:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerleader

I believe in Charity whole-heartedly. I do not believe in charity through global socialism. It is through Charity that each of us individually are able to show God our love for Him and for our neighbor.

Then you are in line with what the Holy Father was teaching. No where did he promote socialism, world or otherwise.

Cheerleader · #**224** Jul 23, '09, 12:33 pm

I would also like to add that I am not a total "gloom and doomer".

"Caritas in Veritate" is very lengthy.

Please know, there are parts of it that I totally embrace, especially when he speaks about the value of life. I would write more, but I gotta go now.

You and the Pope are all in my prayers. God bless.

Liraco · #**225** Jul 23, '09, 3:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerleader

I would also like to add that I am not a total "gloom and doomer".

I certainly don't mean to imply that you are like that.

As Pnewton said, you're in line with the Pope's teaching. If your "beef" is with the UN then all the more reason to agree with the Pope!

Caritas is indeed big and there are certainly parts that seem highly technical and confusing, but I just hope you see what's really being taught and not buying into the fearmongering that the media is trying to push.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerleader

The topic of this thread is "Pope Endorses "World Political Authority". Am I only welcome here if I embrace the Pope's endorsemnet of this figure?

You're certainly not asked to agree with everything, but what we're trying to get you to realize is that the Pope is NOT endorsing a world political authority nor are we. Again, we're on the same side and just trying to get you to realize that.

And keep the name, Cheerleader.

The conflicts here are only due to misunderstandings. Continue to grow in your love for Jesus and spread that love.