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  #1  
Old Jul 23, '09, 7:50 pm
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kimbaichan kimbaichan is offline
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Default Why forms A,B,C for Penitential Rite?

Why are there different forms in the Mass, not only of the Penitential Rite but the Eucharistic Prayer? I can see the difference on a page, but why have different ones? Who in a parish decides which one will be used?
I like the Penitential Rite with the Confiteor but Church A doesn't use it, only Church B. Do people go to a different Mass because they like the liturgy better? (I think liturgy is the right word but if I used it wrong, let me know.)

Last edited by kimbaichan; Jul 23, '09 at 8:07 pm. Reason: forgot to do spell check, oops!
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  #2  
Old Jul 23, '09, 8:03 pm
rpp rpp is offline
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Default Re: Why forms A,B,C for Penential Rite?

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Originally Posted by kimbaichan View Post
Why are there different forms in the Mass, not only of the Penential Rite but the Eucharistic Prayer? I can see the difference on a page, but why have different ones? Who in a parish decides which one will be used?
I like the Penetential Rite with the Confiteor but Church A doesn't use it, only Church B. Do people go to a different Mass because they like the liturgy better? (I think liturgy is the right word but if I used it wrong, let me know.)
These are good questions. I always thought the choice was up to the priest. Some priests use a variety, some always do the same.

for my part, I prefer it when a priest chooses one form and sticks with it. At Mass, I am there to worship, I do not want to be distracted with differences, novelties and the unexpected.

I look forward to better informed answers.
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  #3  
Old Jul 23, '09, 8:28 pm
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Default Re: Why forms A,B,C for Penential Rite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimbaichan View Post
Why are there different forms in the Mass, not only of the Penential Rite but the Eucharistic Prayer? I can see the difference on a page, but why have different ones? Who in a parish decides which one will be used?
I like the Penetential Rite with the Confiteor but Church A doesn't use it, only Church B. Do people go to a different Mass because they like the liturgy better? (I think liturgy is the right word but if I used it wrong, let me know.)
At my parish we tend to vary the choice of Penitential Rite (and other options) by liturgical season. We typically use option C during Advent because that option tends to have the most musical settings. Since we aren't singing the Gloria we spend a little more time on the Penitential rite. During ordinary time we speak Options A or B. In Lent we may go with either a spoken or sung Penitential Rite.

The choice of Penitential Rites and other options are decided by the liturgy committee in conjunction with the pastor.

Our parish has a "Mass script" for Sundays which is passed out to the presider (priest or bishop), the musicians, and the readers. The Penitential Rite and other options are part of script. The liturgy secretary or liturgy director marks all the appropriate pages in the sacramentary with post-it notes for the Eucharistic prayer. Obviously a presiding priest can make changes but most have no desire to do so. I have heard most visiting priests at our parish appreciate not having to make such decisions.
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  #4  
Old Jul 23, '09, 8:51 pm
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JReducation JReducation is offline
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Default Re: Why forms A,B,C for Penitential Rite?

If I'm understanding the question correctly, it is why we have options in the penitential rite and the eucharistic prayer.

To understand why the Sacred Congregation on Worship and Sacraments allows the choices one must understand the theology of each.

The penitential rite belongs to the deacon and the people. The deacon is the ordinary presider at the penitential rite. If there is no deacon, then it falls on the priest who is presiding, not on a concelebrant.

The deacon chooses the penitential rite according to the pastoral need. This can include the season of the year, such as someone mentioned that in certain seasons there is no gloria, therefore the Kyrie is a better version, because it lends itself to music. That's just one pastoral reason, but it's not the only one. Whether the mass is a funeral, wedding, religious profession, ordination or there are baptisms during the mass, or whether it's a solemnity or a weekday with no particular liturgical significance. Also, the readings of the day are to be considered when choosing the penitential rite. Since all of these factors vary, none are stable, the Church allows for diverse posibilities that can enhance the celebration for the occassion.

The Eucharistic prayer belongs to the priest. It is meant for the priest, not the congregation, not even the deacon. The faithful are not praying at that time. It is the priest, united to the priesthood of Jesus Christ who offers the sacrifice. This is his prayer. It is a priestly prayer.

There are as many differences in priests as there are pastoral differences, as we pointed above. Some differences among priests include their spirituality, their culture, the liturgy that they're celebrating that day, whether they belong to a religious community or are secular men, whether they feel that the congregation will be able to follow one prayer better than another. In other words, it's the judgment of the priest to choose a Eucharistic prayer for the mass at which he presides. Hopefully, the choices will also reduce the "routine effect". When you say the same words every day it is easy to reach a point where you are not praying, but reciting by rote. This was one of the problems that was actually addressed when the Ordinary Form was discussed. The canon often became a rote exercise for many priests. They had it memorized and they flew right through it. Hopefully, by giving the priest some choices he can discipline himself to toggle between the Eucharistic prayers to avoid falling into the "routine effect."

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  #5  
Old Jul 24, '09, 1:35 am
bpbasilphx bpbasilphx is offline
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Default Re: Why forms A,B,C for Penitential Rite?

There are four Eucharistic prayers that can ordinarily be used, not three. (I'm taking no account of local uses such as For Children or For Reconciliation.)
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  #6  
Old Jul 24, '09, 3:54 am
Joannm Joannm is offline
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Default Re: Why forms A,B,C for Penitential Rite?

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Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post
There are four Eucharistic prayers that can ordinarily be used, not three. (I'm taking no account of local uses such as For Children or For Reconciliation.)
There are also the EP for reconciliation which are very nice to hear during lent.
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Old Jul 24, '09, 6:55 am
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Default Re: Why forms A,B,C for Penitential Rite?

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Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
To understand why the Sacred Congregation on Worship and Sacraments allows the choices one must understand the theology of each.

The penitential rite belongs to the deacon and the people. The deacon is the ordinary presider at the penitential rite. If there is no deacon, then it falls on the priest who is presiding, not on a concelebrant.
Where do you find that? I can't find mention of the deacon as the minister of preference for the Act of Penitence in the GIRM (esp. nn. 51, 94, 172-174). The only place the deacon is mentioned in the Act of Penitence is in the Roman Missal, rubric 6: Postea sacerdos, vel diaconus vel alius minister, sequentes, vel alias, invocationes cum Kyrie, eléison profert... That still places the priest-celebrant ahead of the deacon.
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  #8  
Old Jul 24, '09, 6:59 am
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Lightbulb Re: Why forms A,B,C for Penitential Rite?

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Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post
There are four Eucharistic prayers that can ordinarily be used, not three. (I'm taking no account of local uses such as For Children or For Reconciliation.)
Those are not local uses; they are available for all.
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  #9  
Old Jul 24, '09, 7:47 am
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Default Re: Why forms A,B,C for Penitential Rite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimbaichan View Post
Why are there different forms in the Mass, not only of the Penitential Rite but the Eucharistic Prayer? I can see the difference on a page, but why have different ones? Who in a parish decides which one will be used?
I like the Penitential Rite with the Confiteor but Church A doesn't use it, only Church B. Do people go to a different Mass because they like the liturgy better? (I think liturgy is the right word but if I used it wrong, let me know.)
Interresting question:

Why the differences: This part, I cannot provide a definitive answer, but I can share "what I've been taught"--in other words, I can't prove it but it does make sense, so maybe someone has better information. Here goes: before the novus ordo Mass, different religious orders had their own variations on the "standard" Mass. These variations were called "peculiarities" (which sounds like a negative word, but it isn't meant that way, so don't read anything into that). When the novus ordo Mass was "composed" the Church "borrowed" from these peculiarities and they formed the basis for the different penitential options that we have today--maybe not word-for-word, but the idea of different forms of the Kyrie has its basis in the peculairities. What a lot of Catholics don't realize is that before Vatican II there was much more variation on the Mass than we have today--even if we consider only the legitimate options being used today and not the illicit changes. Most Catholics were not aware of this because the priests at their own parishes would have been either diocesan, or consistently from the same religious order, so they were simply unaware that the Domicans did things one way and the Benedictines did things a little different. I've heard that of the large orders, the Franciscans were the only ones who did not have these peculiarities.

The choice of the Mass texts is always the right of the priest presiding at that particular Mass (so long as the priest is following the norms of the Church). This goes for all the options in the Mass; penitential rite, eucharistic prayer, even the choice of the Mass propers if there is more than one licit option that day. How that decision gets made will vary from place to place, and from priest to priest. Some priests delegate this decision to the deacon, some delegate it to a parish liturgical committee or coordinator. The priest should make his decision after consulting with those who have a direct role in these various parts.

As for why people go to different Masses, there are as many answers to that one as there are Catholics!
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Old Jul 24, '09, 10:07 am
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Default Re: Why forms A,B,C for Penitential Rite?

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Originally Posted by japhy View Post
Where do you find that? I can't find mention of the deacon as the minister of preference for the Act of Penitence in the GIRM (esp. nn. 51, 94, 172-174). The only place the deacon is mentioned in the Act of Penitence is in the Roman Missal, rubric 6: Postea sacerdos, vel diaconus vel alius minister, sequentes, vel alias, invocationes cum Kyrie, eléison profert... That still places the priest-celebrant ahead of the deacon.
You are right. It's not in the GIRM, however it is in the tradition and has never been changed. It was this way before the NO came into existence and continued even in the NO to this day. My guess is that it is a carry over from the Roman rubrics.

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  #11  
Old Jul 24, '09, 7:20 pm
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Default Re: Why forms A,B,C for Penitential Rite?

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Originally Posted by Joannm View Post
There are also the EP for reconciliation which are very nice to hear during lent.
But, I believe that the same provision regarding EP IV applies to the EPs for Reconciliation in that only their prefaces can be used. The Lenten Masses carry their own prefaces. I don't think that we can mix and match; at least, that is how I read the text.

We had an interesting experience at Mass a week ago. A visiting priest came and decided that he would combine options A and B for the Penitential Rite. We prayed the Confiteor and then he launched into option B. He also celebrated Mass wearing a dalmatic, which looked weird.

After Mass I asked him about the Penitential Rite. He told me that he had the option to do what he did. I told him, with all due respect, that it's either A, B or C, but, not a combination of the two. He then asked me to show him in the Roman Missal. We went to the Sacramentary and I pointed out that he could do one of the three, but, not two at a time. He thanked me for pointing that out to him. There was also a language barrier since he is a Spanish-speaker; however, I noted that whatever the norm is in the English-language Roman Missal is usually the same in the Spanish-language version. As for the dalmatic, he realized that he had the wrong vestment on when he went to celebrate Mass. The sacristan evidently didn't show him where the vestments were.
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