Why do animals suffer?

catholic1seeks · #1 Jul 24, '09, 6:54 pm

We suffer because it was our (well, the first humans') choice to choose himself over God (original sin and all that..). But why do animals suffer? I've heard that nature crashed when man did, but saying that animals started to suffer after the fall goes against science, history, etc. So animals have always suffered (they have to eat each other to survive, etc.).

So why do animals suffer and get sick?

**buffalo** · #2 Jul 24, '09, 6:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by catholic1seeks

We suffer because it was our (well, the first humans') choice to choose himself over God (original sin and all that..). But why do animals suffer? I've heard that nature crashed when man did, but saying that animals started to suffer after the fall goes against science, history, etc. So animals have always suffered (they have to eat each other to survive, etc.).

So why do animals suffer and get sick?

I am not sure they suffer in the same way humans do. They may have a survival reaction to pain though.

StrawberryJam · #3 Jul 24, '09, 6:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by catholic1seeks

We suffer because it was our (well, the first humans') choice to choose himself over God (original sin and all that..). But why do animals suffer? I've heard that nature crashed when man did, but saying that animals started to suffer after the fall goes against science, history, etc. So animals have always suffered (they have to eat each other to survive, etc.).

So why do animals suffer and get sick?

The first animals killed were killed by God. I hope they were stunned first, and felt nothing.

Eucharisted · #4 Jul 24, '09, 7:00 pm

Animals suffer because God only gave man the gift of immortality.

If animals didn't suffer, there could be no evolution, no ecosystem, and no way for man to benefit from animals (food, clothing, etc.).

Luke65 · #5 Jul 24, '09, 7:19 pm

Here is the first animal death:

"The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them." (Genesis 3:21)

Believe so that you may understand.

StrawberryJam · #6 Jul 24, '09, 8:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke65

Here is the first animal death:

"The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them." (Genesis 3:21)

Believe so that you may understand.

Right. As I said before, I hope they were stunned first and felt nothing.

catholic1seeks · #7 Jul 24, '09, 8:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam

Right. As I said before, I hope they were stunned first and felt nothing.

That's why I don't like asking these questions -- because Strawberry Jam comes to the rescue!!

No really.

catholic1seeks · #8 Jul 24, '09, 8:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke65

Here is the first animal death:

"The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them." (Genesis 3:21)

Believe so that you may understand.

I interpret this as God providing animals for the benefit of humanity.

Luke65 · #9 Jul 24, '09, 8:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by catholic1seeks

I interpret this as God providing animals for the benefit of humanity.

So do I. But spiritual interpretations are built on the literal interpretation (CCC #115).

Quote:

Originally Posted by catholic1seeks

That's why I don't like asking these questions -- because Strawberry Jam comes to the rescue!!

No really.

You gotta love Strawberry Jam!

**tonyrey** · #10 Jul 24, '09, 9:59 pm

Animals suffer because without pain their bodies would have no defence mechanism.

Convert66 · #11 Jul 24, '09, 11:22 pm

Is there evidence to suggest that animals suffer "moral outrage" over being eaten; or, would they simply view it naturalistically as survival of the fittest and feel about it that no more than "oww." Are they philosophical about it? Any evidence?

We weep when Bambi's mother is killed. In real life Bambi doesn't even bring flowers.

Omyo12 · #12 Jul 25, '09, 12:15 am

I think there are times when animals suffer. Interestingly enough, it is only when people are involved. For example, just look at shows like Animals Precinct or commercial for the ASPCA.

In nature, animals don't really suffer other than from natural pain due to natural causes.

Animals do get hurt psychologically when people are involved. Just like a puppy with an abusive owner versus a puppy with a pampering owner.

redhen · #13 Jul 25, '09, 7:46 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by catholic1seeks

I interpret this as God providing animals for the benefit of humanity.

But does not all life have intrinsic value?

I find this anthropic view too limited. All the animals were created for homo sapiens to use as seen fit? The planet was created for homo sapiens? The cosmos was created just for our species?

This is why animals suffer?

Sure, animals don't experience mental anguish (as far as we know), but they certainly experience pain, and clearly exhibit emotions such as fear and sadness. I'm sure all of us have seen an animal in distress at some point.

From a biblical perspective then, explain to me why animals suffered before the rise of homo sapiens/adam & eve ?

I think if there is a loving God, then "nature, red in tooth in claw" is part of the creation process. I really don't see how love or compassion fits in this divine creation though.

I have never heard a satisfactory answer on this matter. The only serious attempts I've seen is "it's a mystery", or a more detailed quote such as "For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9

Sin and free will are irrelevant to natural evil, unless you seriously want to argue that all species, extinct or living did not experience pain and suffering before the rise of homo sapiens.

I often ask, along with the philosopher David Ray Griffin "can the the suffering of billions of other species throughout evolution just for the sake of one species possibly be considered morally justifiable?"

The claim that animals don't feel pain and suffering in the same way as humans is only a partial solution. I'll grant that they are spared the anxiety (in most cases) of knowing that they are going to die. But any organism with a nervous system is going to feel pain. It's disappointing to read the opinions of some 19th century writers trying to claim that animals in fact did not feel pain, they might as well have been rocks.

Surely we've progressed since then?

StrawberryJam · #14 Jul 25, '09, 3:26 pm

I did want to mention elephants grieve their dead.

I have no idea if animals suffered before the fall of adam and eve, but clearly that action caused blood to be spilled first by animals. Simply to clothe adam and eve. Prior to their fall, there is no evidence they ever had or needed clothing. Which, I think is another part of the story that I simply must reject. They would have needed clothing. But, that sure is a off topic.

Luke65 · #15 Jul 25, '09, 4:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by redhen

All the animals were created for homo sapiens to use as seen fit?

Yes and no.

Quote:

The planet was created for homo sapiens?

Yes.

Quote:

The cosmos was created just for our species?

Yes

Quote:

This is why animals suffer?

No.

Quote:

From a biblical perspective then, explain to me why animals suffered before the rise of homo sapiens/adam & eve ?

False presupposition. The Bible makes perfect sense as is.

Quote:

I think if there is a loving God, then "nature, red in tooth in claw" is part of the creation process. I really don't see how love or compassion fits in this divine creation though.

Nor do I. That's how you can discern that its a lie.

Quote:

I have never heard a satisfactory answer on this matter.

Then you haven't been listening.

Quote:

The only serious attempts I've seen is "it's a mystery", or a more detailed quote such as "For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9

True, but the whole truth will do.

Quote:

Sin and free will are irrelevant to natural evil, unless you seriously want to argue that all species, extinct or living did not experience pain and suffering before the rise of homo sapiens.

They didn't. Of course, we're only talking about less than 3 days.

Quote:

I often ask, along with the philosopher David Ray Griffin "can the the suffering of billions of other species throughout evolution just for the sake of one species possibly be considered morally justifiable?"

Not according to God:

"Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living. For he fashioned all things that they might have being" (Wisdom 1:13-14)

Quote:

It's disappointing to read the opinions of some 19th century writers trying to claim that animals in fact did not feel pain, they might as well have been rocks.

Do you mean Christians trying to synthesize the theory of evolution with the Truth? That will make a liar of you every time.

Quote:

Surely we've progressed since then?

Knowledge has greatly increased (Daniel 12:4), but love has grown cold (Matthew 24:12) - as foretold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam

I have no idea if animals suffered before the fall of adam and eve, but clearly that action caused blood to be spilled first by animals. Simply to clothe adam and eve. Prior to their fall, there is no evidence they ever had or needed clothing. Which, I think is another part of the story that I simply must reject. They would have needed clothing. But, that sure is a off topic.

I guess I should give the whole quote:

"Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe so that you may understand." - St. Augustine

What can I tell you? Wiser words were never spoken. God bless.