Why do animals suffer? - Page 4

**tonyrey** · #46 Jul 30, '09, 2:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidpele

I found it very relative, and not nonsense at all.

I guess I just don't feel like debating something that I feel like is common sense: namely that suffering, for both animals and people, is the nature of a chaotic world and competition for resources. I don't think it has a purpose, it's just part of reality and we have to deal with it.

And there we are in total agreement...

Omyo12 · #47 Jul 31, '09, 12:23 am

Luke65, since we seem to be getting off the OP topic, I've started a new thread on the Apologetics forum.

I'm most interested in this geocentric theory

budgie2 · #48 Jul 31, '09, 1:10 pm

I personally don't understand why animals are brutal. If God is good, why do some animals eat their own young and fight? Did more evil also enter animal nature when mankind committed sin? I suppose that would be a heresy but I wonder if the whole of the natural world suffered because of the fall of mankind. I'm not sure if we were allowed to kill animals prior to the fall of Adam and Eve but I presume so.

liquidpele · #49 Jul 31, '09, 1:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by budgie2

I personally don't understand why animals are brutal. If God is good, why do some animals eat their own young and fight? Did more evil also enter animal nature when mankind committed sin? I suppose that would be a heresy but I wonder if the whole of the natural world suffered because of the fall of mankind. I'm not sure if we were allowed to kill animals prior to the fall of Adam and Eve but I presume so.

Well... I would explain what I think, but it involves no God interference and evolution, so judging by your comment I figure you won't want it.

**tonyrey** · #50 Jul 31, '09, 3:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by budgie2

I personally don't understand why animals are brutal. If God is good, why do some animals eat their own young and fight?

Have you tried to design a world in which there is no brutality, conflict or predation? When you can do so you will be justified in regarding this world as unnecessarily harsh.

Quote:

Did more evil also enter animal nature when mankind committed sin?

No.

Quote:

I suppose that would be a heresy but I wonder if the whole of the natural world suffered because of the fall of mankind.

Why should it?

Quote:

I'm not sure if we were allowed to kill animals prior to the fall of Adam and Eve but I presume so.

It is possible - and healthier - to live on a vegetarian diet.

severus68 · #51 Aug 2, '09, 6:35 am

I am a Catholic so I can only give my opinion on that basis.I am surprised some of you are still asking basic questions though Christian. I am not however here to criticise but to say this:-

1. Please read Genesis. When God made man He said the non humans were to eat grass and humans were to eat the fruit of the trees except for the one. Adam and Eve did not wear clothes then, they did not know shame until they sinned. "the lion lay down with the lamb'".There was no killing of any kind.

2. Humans suffer because of a world gone wrong from sin. I cannot understand why animals and innocents like young children must suffer. I know they suffer the consequences of Man's fall but I do not understand why God allows that. As I have said in another thread, I believe the answer will only given to me in the next world.

3. Animals do suffer suffer pain,anxiety, etc. Please do not dismiss this as being of no importance. Cows on the slaughter line in an abbatoir shed tears. There are many more examples.If we are the superior moral beings, then should we know it is wrong to delibrately cause suffering to them too.

liquidpele · #52 Aug 2, '09, 7:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by severus68

I am a Catholic so I can only give my opinion on that basis.I am surprised some of you are still asking basic questions though Christian. I am not however here to criticise but to say this:-

1. Please read Genesis. When God made man He said the non humans were to eat grass and humans were to eat the fruit of the trees except for the one. Adam and Eve did not wear clothes then, they did not know shame until they sinned. "the lion lay down with the lamb'".There was no killing of any kind.

2. Humans suffer because of a world gone wrong from sin. I cannot understand why animals and innocents like young children must suffer. I know they suffer the consequences of Man's fall but I do not understand why God allows that. As I have said in another thread, I believe the answer will only given to me in the next world.

3. Animals do suffer suffer pain,anxiety, etc. Please do not dismiss this as being of no importance. Cows on the slaughter line in an abbatoir shed tears. There are many more examples.If we are the superior moral beings, then should we know it is wrong to delibrately cause suffering to them too.

Ha... next time you eat Kosher remember this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_foods#Slaughter

Detales · #53 Aug 2, '09, 1:58 pm

It is pretty commonly understood tht the "Garden" story is allegorical. My understanding, in fact, is quite the opposite of the usual negative take. In my book, the "fall" is an allegory of the ascent of Man to the point of being able to destinguish between inside and outside himself. Of course this brought with it a whole raft of down side things as well as the glories of civilzation (!) and learning. But it means that animals were always in the state they were now in. The linon and lamb thig is a bit enigmatic, but I don't have time to get inot that now. I will only add that the "fall" of Lucifer is a similar allegory. There is a reason Satan is depicted with horns.

wanstronian · #54 Aug 2, '09, 2:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyrey

It is possible - and healthier - to live on a vegetarian diet.

Tony.

I don't know how to say this. It's very difficult for me, as I'm sure you will realise.

It's just that....

We agree on something!

Detales · #55 Aug 2, '09, 2:19 pm

Holy Cow!!! That makes almost three of us. In practice, I stilll eat chicken and fish, and red if I;m a guest or desperate for my carnivore past.

Wanstronian, I really like your signature. Have you read the handbook for religious sanity? I know it is an oxymoron, but it is also a worhty read.

Bindar Doondat, FZPC

**tonyrey** · #56 Aug 2, '09, 4:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wanstronian

Tony.

I don't know how to say this. It's very difficult for me, as I'm sure you will realise.

It's just that....

We agree on something!

Then we have something in common...

Although, come to think of it, it would be extremely odd if we disagreed on absolutely everything... It goes to show that logical possibilities can usually be safely ignored.

warpspeedpetey · #57 Aug 2, '09, 4:27 pm

animals dont suffer, thats anthropomorphism. they are nothing more than little meat bots, deterministically driven, a collection of organic nanomachines called cells.

thats like asking why my roomba suffers.

liquidpele · #58 Aug 2, '09, 6:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by warpspeedpetey

animals dont suffer, thats anthropomorphism. they are nothing more than little meat bots, deterministically driven, a collection of organic nanomachines called cells.

thats like asking why my roomba suffers.

Wow... have you really never had a dog? I mean... that's just kind of heartless.

As for your "meat bot" comment: http://baetzler.de/humor/meat_beings.html

Detales · #59 Aug 2, '09, 7:52 pm

"animals dont suffer, thats anthropomorphism. they are nothing more than little meat bots, deterministically driven, a collection of organic nanomachines called cells."

Really? Why don't you go to a farm and ask to do the honeors when it comes to slaughtering a pig? Have you never watched an injured animal die? How insulated, emotionally, mentally and socially are you???

Timbothefiveth · #60 Aug 2, '09, 7:57 pm

If animals didn't have pain mechianisms, they would die.