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  #1  
Old Jul 25, '09, 4:32 pm
phatcatholic phatcatholic is offline
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Default James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

So, I'm currently in a debate on the meaning of the Greek word kecharitomene ("full of grace") in Lk 1:28 and the implications for Marian dogma. My opponent recently provided the following argument by James White:
However, if we look at Mr. Keating's presentation, it seems clear that he is basing his interpretation not primarily upon the lexical meaning of the word caritow, but upon the form it takes in Luke 1:28, that being the perfect passive participle, kecaritomene. Note that Keating alleges that the "Greek indicates a perfection of grace." He seems to be playing on the perfect tense of the participle. But, as anyone trained in Greek is aware, there is no way to jump from the perfect tense of a participle to the idea that the Greek "indicates a perfection of grace." First, participles primarily derive their tense aspect from the main verb of the sentence. In this case, however, we have a vocative participle, and no main verb in what is in actuality simply a greeting. (The fact that the Roman Catholic Church has to attempt to build such a complex theology on the form of a participle in a greeting should say a great deal in and of itself.) What are we to do with the perfect tense of the participle, then? We might take it as an intensive perfect, one that emphatically states that something *is* (see Dana and Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament pg. 202), but most likely it is simply emphasizing the certainty of the favor given, just as the perfect passive participle in Matthew 25:34 ("Come, you who are blessed by my Father..."), 1 Thessalonians 1:4 ("For we know, brothers loved by God..."), and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ("But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord...") emphasizes the completedness of the action as well. No one would argue that in Matthew 25:34, Jesus means to tell us that the righteous have a "perfection of blessedness that indicates that they had this perfection throughout their life, for a perfection must be perfect not only intensively, but extensively" (to borrow from Mr. Keating's presentation). The application of Keating's thoughts to any of the above passages results in foolishness. Hence, it is obvious that when Keating says that the Greek indicates that Mary "must have been in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called `full of grace' or to have been filled with divine favor in a singular way," he is, in point of fact, not deriving this from the Greek at all, but from his own theology, which he then reads back into the text. There is simply nothing in the Greek to support the pretentious interpretation put forward by Keating and Madrid. Therefore, Madrid's statement, "This is a recognition of her sinless state," falls for lack of support. The angel addressed Mary as "highly favored," for, as he himself said, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God."
You can read White's entire article here. At any rate, if I am understanding White correctly, his argument can be restated like this:
If Mt 25:34; 1 Thes 1:4; and 2 Thes 2:13 all have the same perfect passive tense as Lk 1:28, why don't we understand those verses the same way we understand Lk 1:28, as indicating a permanent state of fullness, completion, or perfection of the verb in question?
Have I properly understood his argument? How would you respond to this argument?

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phatcatholic
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  #2  
Old Jul 25, '09, 4:43 pm
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

Why not submit this question to Karl Keating himself? In the "Ask an apologist" section, he might just provide the counter to this oft used argument. Mr. White's anti-Catholicism is a burden that he has placed on himself. In fact, a book was written about this (White Man's Burden)by Patrick Madrid.
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  #3  
Old Jul 25, '09, 5:11 pm
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

Here are links to Patrick Madrid's comments on the debate. The first is from This Rock magazine:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9310fea2.asp

The following is from Patrick Madrid's website:

http://www.patrickmadrid.com/whitemansburden.htm
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  #4  
Old Jul 25, '09, 5:31 pm
phatcatholic phatcatholic is offline
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

Quote:
Originally Posted by po18guy View Post
Why not submit this question to Karl Keating himself? In the "Ask an apologist" section, he might just provide the counter to this oft used argument. Mr. White's anti-Catholicism is a burden that he has placed on himself. In fact, a book was written about this (White Man's Burden)by Patrick Madrid.
Well, I didn't think that asking someone to respond to a large excerpt was appropriate for the "Ask an Apologist" board.


Quote:
Originally Posted by po18guy View Post
Here are links to Patrick Madrid's comments on the debate. The first is from This Rock magazine:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9310fea2.asp

The following is from Patrick Madrid's website:

http://www.patrickmadrid.com/whitemansburden.htm
I think you just provided two links to the same article.

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  #5  
Old Jul 25, '09, 5:37 pm
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcatholic View Post
So, I'm currently in a debate on the meaning of the Greek word kecharitomene ("full of grace") in Lk 1:28 and the implications for Marian dogma. My opponent recently provided the following argument by James White:
[indent]However, if we look at Mr. Keating's presentation, it seems clear that he is basing his interpretation not primarily upon the lexical meaning of the word caritow, but upon the form it takes in Luke 1:28, that being the perfect passive participle, kecaritomene. Note that Keating alleges that the "Greek indicates a perfection of grace." He seems to be playing on the perfect tense of the participle. But, as anyone trained in Greek is aware, there is no way to jump from the perfect tense of a participle to the idea that the Greek "indicates a perfection of grace."

You can read White's entire article here. At any rate, if I am understanding White correctly, his argument can be restated like this:
Friend I am only an Informed, Practicing Roman Catholic; NOT a BIBLE scholar; but I can explain "full of grace intent and fact" by understanding just a bit about the Divine Natureof Yahweh God and the Blessed Trinity.

Simply put because God is Perfect in every way, Mary inorder to become the Mother og God [Luke 1: 34* And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?" 35* And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born * will be called holy, the Son of God."


A scholar ought to be able to conclude the logic and truth of my argument without further evidence, but because so many of us are not so blessed I would point to what God Himself DEMANDED just for "The ark of the Covenant" as detaild in Exodus Chapter 25 [and other places as well

Exo. 25:10: The Holy Bible RSV Compare to NAB

1"The LORD said to Moses, ... 9 According to all that I show you concerning the pattern of the tabernacle, and of all its furniture, so you shall make it.

23 "And you shall make a table of acacia wood; two cubits shall be its length, a cubit its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height.You shall overlay it with pure gold, and make a molding of gold around it. And you shall make around it a frame a handbreadth wide, and a molding of gold around the frame. And you shall make for it four rings of gold, and fasten the rings to the four corners at its four legs. 27 Close to the frame the rings shall lie, as holders for the poles to carry the table. You shall make the poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold, and the table shall be carried with these. And you shall make its plates and dishes for incense, and its flagons and bowls with which to pour libations; of pure gold you shall make them. And you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always. "And you shall make a lampstand of pure gold. The base and the shaft of the lampstand shall be made of hammered work; its cups, its capitals, and its flowers shall be of one piece with it; and there shall be six branches going out of its sides, three branches of the lampstand out of one side of it and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side of it; three cups made like almonds, each with capital and flower, on one branch, and three cups made like almonds, each with capital and flower, on the other branch--so for the six branches going out of the lampstand; and on the lampstand itself four cups made like almonds, with their capitals and flowers, and a capital of one piece with it under each pair of the six branches going out from the lampstand. Their capitals and their branches shall be of one piece with it, the whole of it one piece of hammered work of pure gold. And you shall make the seven lamps for it; and the lamps shall be set up so as to give light upon the space in front of it. Its snuffers and their trays shall be of pure gold. Of a talent of pure gold shall it be made, with all these utensils. And see that you make them after the pattern for them, which is being shown you on the mountain."
(C)


Please take note of the terms "gold" and in other places "pure gold." If God DEMANDED "PURE GOLD" for what was only "the spirit of God" would He not expect "pure [as in a perfected] ark -tabernacle for His Very Son? Of couese He would. How could The Very Son of God come through a "vessel" that had not been perfected and still be a PERFECT God-man? Not possible.

Mary was pre-perfected NOT on her merits, but rather on the furture merits of her Son, Jesus the Christ! Is God not "aa-powerful? Is this beyond the capabilities of God? No!

This argument about the Greek term is intellectual dishonesty and duplicity.


Have I properly understood his argument? How would you respond to this argument?

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic[/quote]
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  #6  
Old Jul 25, '09, 6:00 pm
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcatholic View Post
Well, I didn't think that asking someone to respond to a large excerpt was appropriate for the "Ask an Apologist" board.
Karl Keating knows the argument well. How about condensing it to the tense and context of the word that White is disputing? Who better than to give the Catholic view?


Quote:
I think you just provided two links to the same article.

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic
Correct. It was just on the off chance that you were not familiar with Mr. Madrid's site.

However, this is an argument that you cannot win, as it it not based on hard fact, but rather interpretation of text. You have your interpretation and your opponent has his/hers. Only the Holy Spirit will sway them, IMO.
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  #7  
Old Jul 25, '09, 6:11 pm
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COPLAND 3 COPLAND 3 is offline
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

I have studied Greek for years, and when it comes to things like this I have found that ancient languages are used with as much private interpretation as English versions, everyone uses the Greek and Hebrew to "prove" their point, if you know what I mean. But the way that I have found to approach this is to go to the Church Fathers who spoke the language and to see how they understood it. In my opinion that is more authoritative than the modern day scholars with an agenda. Here are a couple of quotes from those who spoke Greek

St. Jerome

And it is well said, Full of grace, for to others, grace comes in part; into Mary at once the fullness of grace wholly infused itself. She truly is full of grace through whom has been poured forth upon every creature the abundant rain of the Holy Spirit. But already He was with the Virgin Who sent the angel to the Virgin. The Lord preceded His messenger, for He could not be confined by place Who dwells in all places. Whence it follows, The Lord is with you.



Origen

The angel greeted Mary with a new address, which I could not find anywhere else in Scripture. I ought to explain this expression briefly. The angel says, Hail, full of grace..... I do not remember having read this word elsewhere in Scripture. An expression of this kind :Hail, full of grace," is not addressed to a male. This gretting was reserved for Mary alone.
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  #8  
Old Jul 25, '09, 6:22 pm
SemperReformada SemperReformada is offline
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
Friend I am only an Informed, Practicing Roman Catholic; NOT a BIBLE scholar; but I can explain "full of grace intent and fact" by understanding just a bit about the Divine Natureof Yahweh God and the Blessed Trinity.

Simply put because God is Perfect in every way, Mary inorder to become the Mother og God [Luke 1: 34* And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?" 35* And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born * will be called holy, the Son of God."


A scholar ought to be able to conclude the logic and truth of my argument without further evidence, but because so many of us are not so blessed I would point to what God Himself DEMANDED just for "The ark of the Covenant" as detaild in Exodus Chapter 25 [and other places as well

Exo. 25:10: The Holy Bible RSV Compare to NAB

1"The LORD said to Moses, ... 9 According to all that I show you concerning the pattern of the tabernacle, and of all its furniture, so you shall make it.

23 "And you shall make a table of acacia wood; two cubits shall be its length, a cubit its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height.You shall overlay it with pure gold, and make a molding of gold around it. And you shall make around it a frame a handbreadth wide, and a molding of gold around the frame. And you shall make for it four rings of gold, and fasten the rings to the four corners at its four legs. 27 Close to the frame the rings shall lie, as holders for the poles to carry the table. You shall make the poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold, and the table shall be carried with these. And you shall make its plates and dishes for incense, and its flagons and bowls with which to pour libations; of pure gold you shall make them. And you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always. "And you shall make a lampstand of pure gold. The base and the shaft of the lampstand shall be made of hammered work; its cups, its capitals, and its flowers shall be of one piece with it; and there shall be six branches going out of its sides, three branches of the lampstand out of one side of it and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side of it; three cups made like almonds, each with capital and flower, on one branch, and three cups made like almonds, each with capital and flower, on the other branch--so for the six branches going out of the lampstand; and on the lampstand itself four cups made like almonds, with their capitals and flowers, and a capital of one piece with it under each pair of the six branches going out from the lampstand. Their capitals and their branches shall be of one piece with it, the whole of it one piece of hammered work of pure gold. And you shall make the seven lamps for it; and the lamps shall be set up so as to give light upon the space in front of it. Its snuffers and their trays shall be of pure gold. Of a talent of pure gold shall it be made, with all these utensils. And see that you make them after the pattern for them, which is being shown you on the mountain."
(C)


Please take note of the terms "gold" and in other places "pure gold." If God DEMANDED "PURE GOLD" for what was only "the spirit of God" would He not expect "pure [as in a perfected] ark -tabernacle for His Very Son? Of couese He would. How could The Very Son of God come through a "vessel" that had not been perfected and still be a PERFECT God-man? Not possible.

Mary was pre-perfected NOT on her merits, but rather on the furture merits of her Son, Jesus the Christ! Is God not "aa-powerful? Is this beyond the capabilities of God? No!

This argument about the Greek term is intellectual dishonesty and duplicity.


Have I properly understood his argument? How would you respond to this argument?

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic

Going back to Greek language to understand the term, you know, the one that was inspired by the Holy Spirit, is intellectual dishonesty and duplicitous but arguing from typology, which has no set rules, isn't?

Just how far should we take the Mary - Ark of the Covenant comparison? For example, I don't recall anyone in the NT touching Mary and being struck dead (Uzzah 2Sam 6). There are no set rules for this kind of thing so one could read into the text literally anything one wants to.

In the example you use above I note that the ark itself isn't constructed entirely from "pure" materials (did the wood of the ark have some small faults?) but that some of the items are either made from or overlayed with pure gold. What are we to make of this? Are we forced to jump to the conclusion that Mary must have been sinless because the ark of the covenant had some furniture and other objects made or overlayed with pure gold? Pure sophistry.

My suggestion to phatcatholic would be to find a Catholic scholar to deal with the Greek if that's what the argument boils down to. While I find the ark of the covenant-Mary typology interesting, I don't believe one should start making dogmas based off typology. It's been a long time since I read the actual wording of the dogma but will check it out again because I am curious to know if the decree mentions the ark-Mary typology.

My suggestion to phatcatholic would be to find a Catholic scholar or apologist trained in the Greek language and consult with them.
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  #9  
Old Jul 25, '09, 7:33 pm
phatcatholic phatcatholic is offline
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
[b][i]Friend I am only an Informed, Practicing Roman Catholic; NOT a BIBLE scholar; but I can explain "full of grace intent and fact" by understanding just a bit about the Divine Nature of Yahweh God and the Blessed Trinity.
That's good and all, but it doesn't really respond to White's argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by po18guy View Post
Karl Keating knows the argument well. How about condensing it to the tense and context of the word that White is disputing? Who better than to give the Catholic view?
I'll try that. But, if anyone is proficient enough in Greek to respond here, I would greatly appreciate it.


Quote:
Correct. It was just on the off chance that you were not familiar with Mr. Madrid's site.

However, this is an argument that you cannot win, as it it not based on hard fact, but rather interpretation of text. You have your interpretation and your opponent has his/hers. Only the Holy Spirit will sway them, IMO.
Well, I'm not ready to give up quite yet. Note, I'm not actually debating White, just someone who is utilizing one of White's arguments.

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  #10  
Old Jul 25, '09, 7:36 pm
phatcatholic phatcatholic is offline
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

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Originally Posted by SemperReformada View Post
My suggestion to phatcatholic would be to find a Catholic scholar to deal with the Greek if that's what the argument boils down to. [. . .] My suggestion to phatcatholic would be to find a Catholic scholar or apologist trained in the Greek language and consult with them.
That's why I'm trying to do I appreciate the suggestion though!

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  #11  
Old Jul 25, '09, 7:46 pm
SemperReformada SemperReformada is offline
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

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Originally Posted by phatcatholic View Post
That's why I'm trying to do I appreciate the suggestion though!

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic
I guess that wasn't too helpful was it?
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  #12  
Old Jul 25, '09, 8:18 pm
phatcatholic phatcatholic is offline
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

Quote:
Originally Posted by COPLAND 3 View Post
I have studied Greek for years, and when it comes to things like this I have found that ancient languages are used with as much private interpretation as English versions, everyone uses the Greek and Hebrew to "prove" their point, if you know what I mean. But the way that I have found to approach this is to go to the Church Fathers who spoke the language and to see how they understood it.
I might try that, but I'm not sure how well it will work. Some Protestants are very skeptical of the Fathers and feel that they have a bias of some kind.
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  #13  
Old Jul 25, '09, 8:28 pm
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

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Originally Posted by phatcatholic View Post
That's why I'm trying to do I appreciate the suggestion though!

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic
Call Father Mitch Pacwa on EWTN. You will get an orthodox answer from a Greek speaker.

Your opponent is ignoring 1,976 years of Christian thought, expressed by the greatest minds ever to quote scripture. But, that never stopped an anti-Catholic...
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Old Jul 25, '09, 8:34 pm
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcatholic View Post
I might try that, but I'm not sure how well it will work. Some Protestants are very skeptical of the Fathers and feel that they have a bias of some kind.
Quote= onenow1. Looks like another stand off, guess will have to go to the church, for the answer.

Peace and God Bless
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  #15  
Old Jul 25, '09, 8:53 pm
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Default Re: James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

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Originally Posted by phatcatholic View Post
I might try that, but I'm not sure how well it will work. Some Protestants are very skeptical of the Fathers and feel that they have a bias of some kind.
Yes, they did have quite a bias. They thought, wrote, believed and acted distinctly Catholic in nature. History is the bane of sola scriptura types. The more they examine it, the more they see the sand foundation of sola scriptura washing away.
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