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  #1  
Old Jul 27, '09, 9:50 am
mlouise007 mlouise007 is offline
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Default Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

Coverage of the visit of His Holiness Patriarch Kirill in Ukraine including Live Broadcast feeds

BBC
  #2  
Old Jul 27, '09, 10:08 am
malphono malphono is offline
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Default Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

Why do I get the feeling that this event will not be a cause for dancing in the streets of Lviv?
  #3  
Old Jul 27, '09, 10:31 am
JPayne JPayne is offline
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Default Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

I'm sorry malphono, but I don't understand. Would you mind explaining your comment?
  #4  
Old Jul 27, '09, 12:23 pm
Volodymyr Volodymyr is offline
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Default Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPayne View Post
I'm sorry malphono, but I don't understand. Would you mind explaining your comment?
He is trying to make joke of situation of churches of Ukraina. We have Ukraino-Greko Catolics in Lviv and far Western Ukraina along polish border. We have then a schism in Orthodox church with three calling themselves Orthodox - Ukrainian Orthodox, Ukrainian Kiev Metropolate, and Ukrainian autocephalic orthodox. Patriarch Kirill is Patriarch of ukrainian orthodox church.

However, people in Lviv are not too interested in such problems, I would not believe. Schism in Orthodox is more important in Kiev, Central and Eastern Ukraina.

  #5  
Old Jul 27, '09, 2:38 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
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Smile Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by malphono View Post
Why do I get the feeling that this event will not be a cause for dancing in the streets of Lviv?
You correctly point out that Greek Catholicism in Ukraine is (for the most part) largely a regional phenomenon, although that could change.

Líviv is at the far western edge of the country, it was rather late in coming into union with Rome compared to the other dioceses in the Union of Brest, but it was controlled by the kingdom of Poland, then the Austrian empire, and then the republic of Poland, (two Catholic countries) for a long time. Greek Catholics became concentrated in the region.

Today the Greek Catholics represent about seven or eight percent of the Ukrainian population of about 65,000,000 people.

Wiki has a good diocesan map for the whole country here.


  #6  
Old Jul 27, '09, 4:19 pm
John Larocque John Larocque is offline
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Default Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

As I understand it, the split in Orthodox is because the breakaway churches do not want Ukraine to be part of Russia's canonical territory. They want their own independent patriarchate. Four hundred years ago, they turned to the Bishop of Rome through the Union of Brest, but over time Russia got its canonical territory back, with the Greek Catholics largely confined to Western-controlled territory such as Galicia. Under communism, all church's non-affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate were driven underground, including I think at least one predecessor church of the current breakaways. The current leader of the "Kiev Patriarchate" actually was a mouthpiece for Moscow Patriarch years ago in calling for non-affiliated churches to return to Moscow. He has since changed his tune, since he now leads one of his own. If there is a Ukraine patriarch - an academic question at this point - where do the Byzantine Catholics fit in this puzzle? The current Ukraine president (member of the KP) has been saying nice things about the Greek Catholics and even showed up at a Marian shrine.

My gut feeling is that the Vatican will avoid gestures seen as provocative to Moscow as part of groundwork for a papal visit there. So they'd likely stay out of the inter-Orthodox spat. And we're not likely to see a Ukrainian Catholic patriarch either.
  #7  
Old Jul 27, '09, 4:49 pm
Volodymyr Volodymyr is offline
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Default Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

PATRIARCH KIRILL SCHEDULE UKRAINA





27 July Kyiv
Moleben at Vladimirskij Hill
Meeting of Holy Synod
Meeting with President Ukraina VA Iushenko
Visit to War monument
Visit to memorial of victims of Mass Hunger
Allnigtht Waking Service on the Place in front of the Uspenski Sobor at the Cave monastery

28 July Tuesday

Day of memory of Holy Equal to Apostle Great Prince Vladimir
Divine Liturgy on Place in front Uspenskij Sobor
Procession to Distant Caves; Cave Monastery
Meeting at construction site of Cathedral Sobor city Kyiv
Teleivisin broadcast on kanal Inter in studio

29 July, Wednesday

Meeting with Bishops, spiritual persons, monatics, laity, students of the Kyiv Spiritual academy and intellectausl in the Trapeznij temple of the Caves Monastery

30 July, Thursday
Donetsk
Divine Liturgy in the Holy Mountain Monastery, procession
Meeting in the Cathedral Sobor
31 July, Friday
Meeting at Holy Nicholas Basil monastery
Prayer service

Simferopol

Meeting at construction of Cathedrfal Sobor
Blessing Sobor crosses.

2 August, Sunday

Sevastopol'

Divine Liturgy in Holy Vladimir Sobor, Khersones
Procession on the Place of Nakimof

Rovno

Meeting at Holy Ressurectin Sobor in Rovno

Ровно

3August, Monda
Meeting at Holy Nicholas Monastery

Lutsk
Meeting at Cathedral Sobor, city Lutsk

4 August, Tuesday

Volyn Vladimir
Meeting at Holy Uspensij Cathedral Sobor, city Vladimir/Vlyn

Pochaev

All night Waking Service in Pochaev monastery

5 August, Wednesday

Divine Liturgy, Place of Pochaev monastery
  #8  
Old Jul 28, '09, 6:47 pm
John Larocque John Larocque is offline
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Default Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ussia-orthodox

"Kirill is not the Kremlin's man". The article claims that his main interest is pan-Orthodox unity.

Quote:
At 62, Kirill is relatively young and his patriarchal rule could last for a generation. Together with the ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople and others, he will seek to strengthen Orthodoxy against the forces of aggressive secularism and atheism and to affirm the autonomy of the church vis-ŗ-vis the state without divorcing religion from politics.
One of his right hand man has openly called for an alliance with the Catholic Church to combat the same forces. It is ecumenism in the best sense of the word.
  #9  
Old Jul 29, '09, 10:33 am
Diak Diak is offline
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Default Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

+Kyrill is generally trying to engage in damage control since the latest statistics show that Ukrainians who claim to be religious and who claim the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyivan Patriarchate are now a full 10% higher than the Moscow Patriarchate.

My son just got back from L'viv and indicated Kyrill's visit was not welcomed at all by either the Ukrainian Orthodox - Kyivan Patriarchate or the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox or even the local or oblast (roughly equivalent to a State over here) governments.

I'm not sure what dreamland the Guardian writer is describing, but it is certainly not the Muscovite Orthodox Church. +Kyrill seems to be stepping according to the pace set by +Pimen and +Alexei before him.
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  #10  
Old Jul 29, '09, 10:57 am
Diak Diak is offline
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Default Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

We'll take this misinformation one step at a time.

Quote:
As I understand it, the split in Orthodox is because the breakaway churches do not want Ukraine to be part of Russia's canonical territory. They want their own independent patriarchate. Four hundred years ago, they turned to the Bishop of Rome through the Union of Brest, but over time Russia got its canonical territory back, with the Greek Catholics largely confined to Western-controlled territory such as Galicia.
You apparently do not understand. The Church of Kyiv predates Moscow by a significant number of centuries. The Church of Kyiv always had close ties with Constantinople, and secondarily Antioch until well into the seventeenth century and the expansion of Muscovy. Even St. Peter Mohyla had a plan for a suggested reintegration of the Kyivan Metropolia with Rome and Constantinople based on a dual-communion. His untimetly death and Muscovite expansion did not see that through. Ukrainians are Ukrainians, and not Russians. That goes for the ecclesiological provenance as well as the ethnic.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church was suppressed sometimes violently until the 20th century. Like Bulgaria or other Churches which deserved and eventually received autocephally, the Kyivan Church also is realizing its growing pains with overt pressure from Moscow not to do so. Remember the Bulgarian Orthodox Church was actually declared to be "without grace" by Constantinople for almost 75 years and thus all of her priests and sacraments invalid (at least in the eyes of Constantinople).

Most recent statistics as I cited above show the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate gaining ground at a more rapid pace in the last five years. +Kyrill's visit seems much more to avert any further movement towards autocephaly than anything else. Why shouldn't the Church who is the precursor of Moscow be granted autocephaly?

The Greek Catholics in Tsarist areas were forceably reintegrated either into the Polish Latin parishes or the Orthodox (or in the case of Pratulyn, just executed).

Quote:
Under communism, all church's non-affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate were driven underground, including I think at least one predecessor church of the current breakaways. The current leader of the "Kiev Patriarchate" actually was a mouthpiece for Moscow Patriarch years ago in calling for non-affiliated churches to return to Moscow. He has since changed his tune, since he now leads one of his own.
Unlike Agent Drozdov, the former Patriarch +Alexei, the current Patriarch of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate, +Filaret, has publically asked for forgiveness for his acts while in the Moscow Patriarchate. He essentially threw away all of his political clout, his financial future of salary, benefits, etc. with the Moscow Patriarchate to lead a fledgling Church who was just coming out of the catacombs in many ways, and a very unsure prospect. I certainly do not condone many things that +Filaret likely did in his past; realistically every Soviet-era hierarch of the MP, including the current Patriarch, has baggage associated with the outfall from the Sergian capitulation of the MP during the Stalin era. Compromise was part and parcel of obtaining an episcopal appointment.

Quote:
If there is a Ukraine patriarch - an academic question at this point - where do the Byzantine Catholics fit in this puzzle? The current Ukraine president (member of the KP) has been saying nice things about the Greek Catholics and even showed up at a Marian shrine.
We already have a Patriarch; like the Maronites we elected one and sooner or later it will be recognized outside of our Church (the Melkite Patriarch addresses our Patriarch as such). Regarding President Yushchenko, his personal religion is his business, but if he chooses to support Churches that actually represent an historic Kyivan ecclesiological identity, all the better in my book rather than continuing to support the political and religious suppression coming from the MP.

Considering the abortion rate in Russia is the highest in the entire world, and has been for probably a decade (certainly since the Church has been able to operate freely) I am not sure what attraction there is, anyway, at least on a level of moral teachings.

Quote:
My gut feeling is that the Vatican will avoid gestures seen as provocative to Moscow as part of groundwork for a papal visit there. So they'd likely stay out of the inter-Orthodox spat. And we're not likely to see a Ukrainian Catholic patriarch either.
Ostpolitik is still present; it just now takes more subtle forms.

Regarding the Patriarchate, those of us in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church commemorate our leader as Patriarch; for Eastern Christians once we realize something liturgically the lex orandi reinforces the lex credeni. My bishop actually directed all clergy to commemorate His Beatitude as Patriarch; he does so every Pontifical Liturgy as well. In Eastern Christianity, if something is not recognized on the level of the local or particular Church, it doesn't exist.
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Last edited by Diak; Jul 29, '09 at 11:09 am.
  #11  
Old Jul 29, '09, 11:49 am
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
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Smile Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

Hello Father Deacon,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diak View Post
Most recent statistics as I cited above show the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate gaining ground at a more rapid pace in the last five years. +Kyrill's visit seems much more to avert any further movement towards autocephaly than anything else. Why shouldn't the Church who is the precursor of Moscow be granted autocephaly?
Do you happen to have a link, or something? I have not seen any reliable statistics at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diak View Post
The Greek Catholics in Tsarist areas were forceably reintegrated either into the Polish Latin parishes or the Orthodox (or in the case of Pratulyn, just executed).
For the most part the return to Orthodoxy seems to have gone rather smoothly in the Czarist era. The descendants of these people still celebrate their return to Orthodoxy. Clearly numerous clerics committed to the Unia went west at the time, concentrating in the Sees of Chelm and Lvyv.

Concerning Pratulyn, of the Chelm diocese, that even one person should die is too many, and here were have thirteen, clearly a tragedy. I think it was mostly a political mistake, certainly no priest ordered the shooting at the demonstrators. An indefensible act, still it was not a formal execution, even if people refused to disburse as ordered. I think it was more of a "Kent State" type of debacle. Totally regrettable.

But what has any of this to do with the Orthodox Patriarch visiting his flock in Ukraine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diak View Post
We already have a Patriarch; like the Maronites we elected one and sooner or later it will be recognized outside of our Church (the Melkite Patriarch addresses our Patriarch as such)....

Regarding the Patriarchate, those of us in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church commemorate our leader as Patriarch; for Eastern Christians once we realize something liturgically the lex orandi reinforces the lex credeni. My bishop actually directed all clergy to commemorate His Beatitude as Patriarch; he does so every Pontifical Liturgy as well. In Eastern Christianity, if something is not recognized on the level of the local or particular Church, it doesn't exist.
That's nice.

I suppose then, it is your opinion that the Pope's position on this title and office is irrelevant?

Is the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church on a drive toward autocephaly in the same manner as Metropolitan Filaret?
  #12  
Old Jul 29, '09, 12:08 pm
John Larocque John Larocque is offline
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Default Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

There's some interesting historical discussion here:
http://expat.ru/analitics.php?item=445
  #13  
Old Jul 29, '09, 7:28 pm
Volodymyr Volodymyr is offline
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Default Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

PATRIARCH IN UKRAINA

Патриарх in Kyiv at the Pokrov Feminine Monastery:



Patriarch at the Trapeznij Sobor of Cave monastery speaking to clergy and members of Kyivan Spiritual Academy, where he was given Doctor of Theology, Honoris Causa.:

  #14  
Old Jul 29, '09, 11:30 pm
KyivAndrew KyivAndrew is offline
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Default Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
Hello Father Deacon, Do you happen to have a link, or something? I have not seen any reliable statistics at all.
Jumping in, well, what I have so far.
"Of the two main churches, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyiv Patriarchate has more followers, by most accounts. But Kirill's church is the one that is recognized as having full canonical standing in Eastern Orthodoxy." http://www.rferl.org/content/Russian..._/1786362.html

"The mainstream, Moscow-aligned church claims about 28 million believers, while the separatist Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kiev Patriarchate claims about 14 million followers. Opinion polls show the splinter church's popularity is growing."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/...RyaWFyY2hraXI-

So hard to get at tight numbers, but hearsay has it UOC (Moscow) has more real estate in Ukraine, UOC (Kyiv) more faithful. Who knows?
  #15  
Old Jul 29, '09, 11:46 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
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Smile Re: Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyivAndrew View Post
So hard to get at tight numbers, but hearsay has it UOC (Moscow) has more real estate in Ukraine, UOC (Kyiv) more faithful. Who knows?
That's possible, especially if the MP has a lot of rural parishes toward the east.

Rural parishes may have smaller congregations than urban parishes.
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