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  #1  
Old Jul 28, '09, 3:21 pm
ricko ricko is offline
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Default Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

The Mormons claim to have actual Apostles in their church but do they really?

Apostle James Talmage said that men who are commissioned by the authority of heaven
“will not be lacking in proofs of their divine commission.… These [spiritual gifts] are
oftentimes exhibited in a manner so different from the usual order of things as to be called
miraculous and supernatural.… We may safely regard the existence of these spiritual
powers as one of the essential characteristics of the Church; where they are not, the Priesthood of God does not operate” (Articles of Faith, p. 217).

Talmage also said:

In the present day,
the dispensation of the fulness of times, this power (the gift of healing) is possessed in the [LDS] Church and
its manifestation is of frequent occurrence among the Latter-day Saints. Thousand of
recipients can testify to the fulfillment of the Lord’s promise, that if His servants lay hands on the sick they shall recover.

In addition to healing, the Apostles could also raise the dead. If this Apostolic power of healing is possessed by the LDS where is the evidence of it? Where are the reports of miraculous healings, the lame walking, the blind seeing and others?

The explanation is that the LDS Apostles cannot do these things because they are not Apostles and do not possess the power of Apostles.
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  #2  
Old Jul 28, '09, 3:24 pm
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Mannyfit75 Mannyfit75 is offline
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

they are false and have no validity as the successors of the Apostles.
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"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
  #3  
Old Jul 28, '09, 3:24 pm
Religio71 Religio71 is offline
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricko View Post
The Mormons claim to have actual Apostles in their church but do they really?

Apostle James Talmage said that men who are commissioned by the authority of heaven
“will not be lacking in proofs of their divine commission.… These [spiritual gifts] are
oftentimes exhibited in a manner so different from the usual order of things as to be called
miraculous and supernatural.… We may safely regard the existence of these spiritual
powers as one of the essential characteristics of the Church; where they are not, the Priesthood of God does not operate” (Articles of Faith, p. 217).

Talmage also said:

In the present day,
the dispensation of the fulness of times, this power (the gift of healing) is possessed in the [LDS] Church and
its manifestation is of frequent occurrence among the Latter-day Saints. Thousand of
recipients can testify to the fulfillment of the Lord’s promise, that if His servants lay hands on the sick they shall recover.

In addition to healing, the Apostles could also raise the dead. If this Apostolic power of healing is possessed by the LDS where is the evidence of it? Where are the reports of miraculous healings, the lame walking, the blind seeing and others?

The explanation is that the LDS Apostles cannot do these things because they are not Apostles and do not possess the power of Apostles.
Mormon apostles are not like biblical apostles
  #4  
Old Jul 28, '09, 3:40 pm
ricko ricko is offline
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Religio71 View Post
Mormon apostles are not like biblical apostles
Your Apostle Talmage says different.

I like your response better as it is closer to the truth. You're right. They are not like the true Apostles. They have no authority or power that the original Apostles had. They have simply assumed (wrongly) the title of Apostle
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  #5  
Old Jul 28, '09, 3:41 pm
Religio71 Religio71 is offline
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricko View Post
Your Apostle Talmage says different.

I like your response better as it is closer to the truth. You're right. They are not like the true Apostles. They have no authority or power that the original Apostles had. They have simply assumed (wrongly) the title of Apostle

I agree.

Btw, he is not "my" apostle. I am not LDS.
  #6  
Old Jul 28, '09, 4:39 pm
ParkerD ParkerD is offline
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricko View Post
The Mormons claim to have actual Apostles in their church but do they really?

Apostle James Talmage said that men who are commissioned by the authority of heaven
“will not be lacking in proofs of their divine commission.… These [spiritual gifts] are
oftentimes exhibited in a manner so different from the usual order of things as to be called
miraculous and supernatural.… We may safely regard the existence of these spiritual
powers as one of the essential characteristics of the Church; where they are not, the Priesthood of God does not operate” (Articles of Faith, p. 217).

Talmage also said:

In the present day,
the dispensation of the fulness of times, this power (the gift of healing) is possessed in the [LDS] Church and
its manifestation is of frequent occurrence among the Latter-day Saints. Thousand of
recipients can testify to the fulfillment of the Lord’s promise, that if His servants lay hands on the sick they shall recover.

In addition to healing, the Apostles could also raise the dead. If this Apostolic power of healing is possessed by the LDS where is the evidence of it? Where are the reports of miraculous healings, the lame walking, the blind seeing and others?

The explanation is that the LDS Apostles cannot do these things because they are not Apostles and do not possess the power of Apostles.
Rick,
Those kinds of miracles have happened in the modern age, occasionally, and I have heard of some of the experiences. I could cite a few examples when I had the time to look them up. But they are not written up in newspapers. I'm glad they're not.
  #7  
Old Jul 28, '09, 5:50 pm
ricko ricko is offline
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerD View Post
Rick,
Those kinds of miracles have happened in the modern age, occasionally, and I have heard of some of the experiences. I could cite a few examples when I had the time to look them up. But they are not written up in newspapers. I'm glad they're not.
Sorry Religio, I just now saw that you WERE LDS.

Parker, let's have some articles about the miracles if you would, even if from only Mormon sources.

Why are they not written up in newspapers and why does that make you happy? Everyone saw Jesus and the Apostles do their miracles. They were all public. Does the LDS have a problem with that?
__________________
RICK
  #8  
Old Jul 28, '09, 6:02 pm
Jesus_123 Jesus_123 is offline
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

+ I posted this on another thread . . . thought it might help here . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus_123 View Post

+ ... I was raised as a child in the heart of "Mormon" country here in the United States ... Though I knew many Mormons as friends in school and our neighborhood . . . their belief system is known to Catholics and Protestants alike essentially as a CULT . . . and it is an immensely large one . . . and their understandings, definitions and usage of the same religious and scriptural words are RADICALLY different . . .
Quote:
Definition:
Cult - A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cult
  1. Mormons do not believe in the Trinity . . . God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit
  2. Mormon's do not believe that Jesus is God . . . as well as not believing that He is God Incarnate . . .
  3. When Mormon's use the word "Christian" it does not relate in any way to Jesus Christ known as God Incarnate - Second Person of our Triune God . . . that Catholics and Protestant Christians mean when they use the same term . . .
  4. When they use the word "church" . . . they are not referring to the "Bride-of-Christ/Body-of-Christ (God-Incarnate/God-the-Son)
And the above items are just a few of the many major radical differences between the Mormon cult and Christian Catholic and Protestant beliefs ... use of words familiar to Catholics and Protestants . . . have radically different meanings based on Mormon doctrinal interpretation . . . below is a portion of an article that contrasts some of these beliefs . . .
Quote:
The Mormon Jesus – A Theological Debate

… When answering the charge of whether the Mormons worship a different Jesus than the other Christian denominations, the former head of the Mormon church, Gordon B. Hinckley, stated that THEY DID [worship a different Jesus], but remained firm that he and every other member of the religion he represented were Christians.

Theologians point to this doctrine to show that the Mormons worship a different Jesus.
Mormons do not believe in the Trinity.
The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost are believed to be separate personages.
This is the area where the “Mormon Jesus” differs.
The Mormons believe that Jesus is a being with his own body, rather than believing that Jesus is God come to Earth in Human form.

The Mormon View of Jesus and Its Effect on Other Religions

… Roman Catholics, for example, do not recognize an LDS [MORMON] baptism as valid.

Resources: “A Mormon Moment.” Kenneth L. Woodward. Newsweek. September 10, 2001.

http://mormonism.suite101.com/articl...xzz0HPjjolWf&A
"Beloved, believe not every spirit,
but try the spirits whether they are of God:
because many false prophets
are gone out into the world."

John 4:1

The Mormon's concept of God and interpretation of Sacred Scripture is radically different from the Catholic/Protestant Christian's God and Scripture interpretation . . . even their use of the word Christian has a radically different base and meaning than Catholic/Protestant Christian meaning . . .

Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. ...
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart,
and with thy whole soul,
and with thy whole strength."

Deuteronomy 6:4-5

Careful folks . . . God bless . . .
PRAYER TO
SAINT MICHAEL
THE ARCHANGEL


St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.


. . . all for Jesus+
. . . Precious Blood Of Jesus
. . . in all Its Ancient Power
. . . cover all who have been in contact
with this CAF thread+
  #9  
Old Jul 28, '09, 7:29 pm
ricko ricko is offline
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

Well I don't believe that they have Apostles or prophets. They can call them by those titles but that does not make them so. They don't have any powers that the Apostles had. As far as revelations go, anyone can say that they have had a revelation but you can't prove or disprove it.

If their apostles are gifted then why doesn't one of them interpert the fragment of the BOA instead of sending it off to be studied?

Now Parker is coming back with some miracles but I am sure there will be no evidence just witnesses. Unlike the Catholic Church has doctors from all faiths and none to examine any miracles from Lourdes. Everything is open and above board. I don't think I will see that with any Mormon miracles. It will probably be, you don't have faith so you won't believe it anyway or you have to be a Mormon to believe or you ask for a sign and it won't be given, etc.
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  #10  
Old Jul 28, '09, 9:27 pm
ParkerD ParkerD is offline
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricko View Post
Sorry Religio, I just now saw that you WERE LDS.

Parker, let's have some articles about the miracles if you would, even if from only Mormon sources.

Why are they not written up in newspapers and why does that make you happy? Everyone saw Jesus and the Apostles do their miracles. They were all public. Does the LDS have a problem with that?
Rick,
When Christ raised Lazarus from the dead, many Jews didn't believe that it had happened. He also didn't call in a crowd of people to witness the healing in the case of Lazarus. I'll look up some sources for some of the experiences I have heard (not seen personally).
  #11  
Old Jul 28, '09, 10:45 pm
ParkerD ParkerD is offline
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricko View Post
Sorry Religio, I just now saw that you WERE LDS.

Parker, let's have some articles about the miracles if you would, even if from only Mormon sources.

Why are they not written up in newspapers and why does that make you happy? Everyone saw Jesus and the Apostles do their miracles. They were all public. Does the LDS have a problem with that?
Rick,
Here is one, as recorded by Wilford Woodruff who kept a very detailed journal:

22 July 1839

(Wilford Woodruff): "On the morning of the 22nd of July, 1839, [the Prophet] arose reflecting upon the situation of the Saints of God in their persecutions and afflictions. He called upon the Lord in prayer, and the power of God rested mightily upon him. And as Jesus healed all the sick around Him in His day, so Joseph, the Prophet of God, healed all around on this occasion. He healed all in his house and dooryard, then, in company with Sidney Rigdon and several of the Twelve, he went through among the sick lying on the bank of the river, and he commanded them in a loud voice, in the name of Jesus Christ, to come up and be made whole, and they were all healed.

When he healed all that were sick on the east side of the river, they crossed the Mississippi River to Montrose, where we were. The first house they went into was President Brigham Young's. He was sick on his bed at the time. The Prophet went into his house and healed him, and they all came out together. As they were passing by my door, Brother Joseph said, "Brother Woodruff, follow me."

These were the only words spoken by any of the company from the time they left Brother Brigham's house till we crossed the public square and entered Brother Elijah Fordham's house. Brother Fordham had been dying for an hour, and we expected each minute would be his last.

I felt the power of God that was overwhelming His prophet. When we entered the house, Brother Joseph walked up to Brother Fordham and took him by the right hand; in his left hand he held his hat.

He saw that Brother Fordham's eyes were glazed, and that he was speechless and unconscious.

After taking hold of his hand, the Prophet looked down into the dying man's face and said, "Brother Fordham, do you not know me?"

At first he made no reply; but we could all see the effect of the Spirit of God resting upon him.

Joseph again said, "Elijah, do you not know me?"

With a low whisper, Brother Fordham answered, "Yes."

The Prophet then said, "Have you not faith to be healed?"

The answer, which was a little plainer than before, was, "I am afraid it is too late. If you had come sooner, I think I might have been."

He had the appearance of a man waking from sleep. It was the sleep of death.

Joseph then said, "Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ?"

"I do, Brother Joseph," was the response.

Then the Prophet of God spoke with a loud voice, as in the majesty of the Godhead, "Elijah, I command you, in the name of Jesus of Nazareth, to arise and be made whole!"

The words of the Prophet were not like the words of man, but like the voice of God. It seemed to me that the house shook from its foundation. Elijah Fordham leaped from his bed like a man raised from the dead. A healthy color came to his face, and life was manifested in every act. His feet were done up in Indian-meal poultices. He kicked them off his feet, scattered the contents, then called for his clothes and put them on. He asked for a bowl of bread and milk and ate it. Then he put on his hat and followed us into the street to visit others who were sick.

As soon as we left Brother Fordham's house, we went into the house of Joseph B. Noble, who was very low and dangerously sick. When we entered the house, Brother Joseph took him by the hand, and commanded him, in the name of Jesus Christ, to arise and be made whole. He did arise and was immediately healed."
  #12  
Old Jul 29, '09, 12:56 pm
ricko ricko is offline
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

Interesting story. Thanks for the post.

Now, there are some things I must say about that story in an objective way.

First of all is "the sick lying on the bank of the river". I find the number of sick to be at least 5 or more. The wording sounds like many. Also find it strange they are lying on the bank of the river.

"He healed all in his house and dooryard," Sounds like everybody in his house was sick. Not only that but he had sick people in his yard! Looks like anywhere from 12 to more than 20 people were sick all at the same time and all within walking distance.

Too far fetched for anyone except a Mormon to believe. Got any happenings that are closer to our time period?
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  #13  
Old Jul 29, '09, 2:10 pm
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

I would also like to add this Bible verse to the conversation:

(Matthew 24:24 RSV) For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
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Old Jul 29, '09, 2:19 pm
Tomster Tomster is offline
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly3278 View Post
I would also like to add this Bible verse to the conversation:

(Matthew 24:24 RSV) For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
And since Mormonism did not come onto the scene until 1830, so much for Mormonism.

Last edited by Tomster; Jul 29, '09 at 2:20 pm. Reason: addition
  #15  
Old Jul 29, '09, 5:18 pm
bpbasilphx bpbasilphx is offline
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Default Re: Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

St. Paul prophecied about the Mormonoid Apostles here:

2 Corinthians 11:13
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
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