An object being it's own cause.

[James S Saint]

wassup,

You seem to be making gross assumptions as to what I was saying. Your responses have nothing to do with what I said. You are imagining arguments that haven't been made.

[1holycatholic]

Originally Posted by James S Saint

I think you misunderstand "First Cause" (as do most). It had nothing to do with the first moment in time. Time is infinite in both directions, yet this does not effect the actual First Cause argument at all. It is just a mix up in the language.

That's not possible because infinite past time entails a contradiction.

[wussup]

Originally Posted by James S Saint

wassup,

You seem to be making gross assumptions as to what I was saying. Your responses have nothing to do with what I said. You are imagining arguments that haven't been made.

Hmmm, I thought I was using your words, but apparently you are infinitely wiser than I and even commenting on what you said is impossible for one of my lesser intellect. I bow to your true genius. My ignorance is bare before all....

[James S Saint]

Originally Posted by 1holycatholic

That's not possible because infinite past time entails a contradiction.

Which would be?

[1holycatholic]

Originally Posted by James S Saint

Which would be?

It's the difference between potential and actual infinities. Past time has actually occurred, future time can potentially occur.

Infinity is, by definition, unachievable.

The dictionary on my computer defines infinity as:

Mathematics a number greater than any assignable quantity or countable number (symbol ∞).

So, by definition, infinity is uncountable (unachievable == you can't count to infinity). Future time which has not yet occurred can potentially progress infinitely, but past time has actually occurred and is countable. Infinite past time would mean that a contradiction (an countable uncountable) exists.

[James S Saint]

Originally Posted by 1holycatholic

It's the difference between potential and actual infinities. Past time has actually occurred, future time can potentially occur.

Infinity is, by definition, unachievable.

The dictionary on my computer defines infinity as:

Mathematics a number greater than any assignable quantity or countable number (symbol ∞).

So, by definition, infinity is uncountable (unachievable == you can't count to infinity). Future time which has not yet occurred can potentially progress infinitely, but past time has actually occurred and is countable. Infinite past time would mean that a contradiction (an countable uncountable) exists.

Isn't that red phrase an assertion of yours?

The dictionary said nothing about the past being "countable".

Logic would dictate otherwise in that for any event to occur, it had to have a cause to bring it about and that cause had to exist prior to the event (by definition), but that cause is in itself an event subject to the same concerns of having to have a cause prior. Thus there can be no beginning point as each cause must also have a prior cause.

[1holycatholic]

Originally Posted by James S Saint

Isn't that red phrase an assertion of yours?

The dictionary said nothing about the past being "countable".

Logic would dictate otherwise in that for any event to occur, it had to have a cause to bring it about and that cause had to exist prior to the event (by definition), but that cause is in itself an event subject to the same concerns of having to have a cause prior. Thus there can be no beginning point as each cause must also have a prior cause.

Days past:
Today = has no passed => 0 days in the past.
Yesterday = 1 day => 1 day in the past.
Day before yesterday = 1 day => 2 days in the past.
The day before the day before yesterday = 1 day => 3 days in the past.
etc. etc. etc.

You are stating that an infinite (∞) number of days have occurred in the past.

Count them for us.

[James S Saint]

Originally Posted by 1holycatholic

You are stating that an infinite (∞) number of days have occurred in the past.

Count them for us.

You are the one who said they were countable. I said they are not (infinite).

So you count them for us to demonstrate your point.

[1holycatholic]

Originally Posted by James S Saint

You are the one who said they were countable. I said they are not (infinite).

So you count them for us to demonstrate your point.

I have demonstrated that they are, in fact, countable, therefore your claim that they are not countable is demonstrably false.

[Just Lurking]

Originally Posted by 1holycatholic

It's the difference between potential and actual infinities. Past time has actually occurred, future time can potentially occur.

Scientific method for determining if past time is infinite: Make astronomical observations and estimate the amount and distribution of matter in the universe. Enter that information into Einstein's equation for gravity, and determine if the solution is a compact 4-manifold or a non-compact 4-manifold.

Metaphysical method for determining if past time is infinite: Think real hard about potential and actual infinities.

Am I really supposed to believe that the metaphysical method is superior?

[James S Saint]

Originally Posted by 1holycatholic

I have demonstrated that they are, in fact, countable, therefore your claim that they are not countable is demonstrably false.

Right.

[James S Saint]

Originally Posted by Just Lurking

Scientific method for determining if past time is infinite: Make astronomical observations and estimate the amount and distribution of matter in the universe. Enter that information into Einstein's equation for gravity, and determine if the solution is a compact 4-manifold or a non-compact 4-manifold.

But then without accepting the principle of "cause and effect" from the start, no Science would be relevant.

[1holycatholic]

Originally Posted by James S Saint

Right.

I'm glad you agree that a countable uncountable is a contradiction and cannot be.

[1holycatholic]

Originally Posted by Just Lurking

Scientific method for determining if past time is infinite: Make astronomical observations and estimate the amount and distribution of matter in the universe. Enter that information into Einstein's equation for gravity, and determine if the solution is a compact 4-manifold or a non-compact 4-manifold.

Metaphysical method for determining if past time is infinite: Think real hard about potential and actual infinities.

Am I really supposed to believe that the metaphysical method is superior?

Do you consider the Hilbertian prohibition of achieved infinite sequences a metaphysical method?

[1holycatholic]

Originally Posted by James S Saint

But then without accepting the principle of "cause and effect" from the start, no Science would be relevant.

That's why David Hume ought to give the scientific materialist fits.