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  #1  
Old Aug 29, '09, 2:40 pm
Dan Parker Dan Parker is offline
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Default Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

This post was in another thread and since it has not been addressed and is a bit of a departure from the original thread, I am placing it here. I am interested in how Catholics view the biblical monotheism I presented in this post.


Originally Posted by Danno2281
Quote:
The most pertinent consideration is that there is in Greek no indefinite article, as you well know. The application of the article, by Mackenzie or anyone else, comes down to interpretation being necessary to faithful translation. Because the whole of scripture is the milieu wherein the interpretation must occur, one cannot rightly argue one line against the whole backdrop of the scriptures. Given the examples of the assurance of the divinity of Christ above (and there are many more), and the impossibility of believing in more than one god (cf.Jas: 2, 19), the argument against the article prevails

Dan:

Actually, the question is not whether or not more than one person has been given the title of god is not debatable. Moses was called elohim (Ex 7:1) and there are other examples as well. Since others can have the title of god in a limited way the question arises as to how bible writers express the concept of monotheism.

Monotheism comes from the Greek word MONO (one or only) and QEOS (God). When bible writers establish and articulate the concept of monotheism they frequently modify the word God with hEIS (one) or MONOS (only).

Do a search of all examples in Scripture where this is done and you will find that in many cases not only is the basic concept of monotheism established, but in the very same verse that one God is identified.

Here are some of them:
  • NAB Malachi 2:10 )Have we not all the one Father? Has not the one God created us? Why then do we break faith with each other, violating the covenant of our fathers?
  • NAB 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and through whom we exist.
  • NAB Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
  • NAB 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human [context mandates the one God is the Father]
  • NAB John 5:43 I came in the name of my Father, but you do not accept me; yet if another comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe, when you accept praise from one another and do not seek the praise that comes from the only God?
  • NAB Jude 1:25 to the only God, our savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord be glory, majesty, power, and authority from ages past, now, and for ages to come. Amen. [the one God distinguished from Jesus]
  • NAB John 17:3 Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. [Jesus praying to his Father]


When bible writers articulate the concept of monotheism they also at the same time frequently identify the Father as that one God.

That is the monotheism of the bible writers and what they teach in context.

Dan
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  #2  
Old Aug 29, '09, 3:47 pm
Poetess Kera Poetess Kera is offline
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

In John 10:30, Jesus says:

"I and the Father are one."

Also, Jesus was completely sinless, as was God the Father, signifying unity. The Father and the Son are one in the same.
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  #3  
Old Aug 29, '09, 4:05 pm
Dan Parker Dan Parker is offline
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetess Kera View Post
In John 10:30, Jesus says:

"I and the Father are one."

Also, Jesus was completely sinless, as was God the Father, signifying unity. The Father and the Son are one in the same.
Thanks for the response. You might be surprised to know that this is not the only time that Jesus spoke of this oneness. Jesus was praying to his Father and speaking about his disciples:

Quote:
NAB John 17:22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
Jesus said that his disciples are one as he and his Father are one. The Greek word here rendered one is in the neuter and is hEN in both this passage and John 10:30. It means one thing, in this case one in purpose. The disciples are neither one person or one being, they are one in purpose and are one as the Father and Son are one.

Thanks for your response, even though what you really needed to show was where Jesus is called "the one God."

If the word "one" was in reference to the one God it would be the masculine hEIS and not the neuter hEN. When we find the phrase one God in Greek it is hEIS QEOS because QEOS is masculine.

Dan
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  #4  
Old Aug 29, '09, 8:23 pm
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LionHeart777 LionHeart777 is online now
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

the Bible writers also refer to Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God.
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  #5  
Old Aug 29, '09, 10:55 pm
Dan Parker Dan Parker is offline
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

Quote:
Originally Posted by LionHeart777 View Post
the Bible writers also refer to Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God.

Dan:

I am quite familiar with a handful of verses which are said to refer to Jesus as God. Some are debated even amongst Trinitarian scholars. However none of them refer to Jesus as the 'one God' which is an expression of Christian monotheism. If you read my post carefully you will see that is what I am discussing.

As for the holy spirit, it is only be making some assumptions and holding to a presupposition of that fact that one arrives at that conclusion. No verse explicitly states the holy spirit is God as you do.

Dan
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  #6  
Old Aug 30, '09, 12:53 am
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LionHeart777 LionHeart777 is online now
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

Dan:

I should have read more before I responded , excuse me. I'm sleepy eyed I'll come back later.
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  #7  
Old Aug 30, '09, 7:46 am
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NHInsider NHInsider is offline
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

Dan-

I suspect that the reason the original post did not generate much traffic is because most people recognize a futile discussion.

I wouldn't get too involved in trying to discuss the Trinity with a Jehovah's Witness. You explicitly deny the Trinity and, of course, have your own version of Scripture from which to "prove" your points.

Although the Watch Tower Society is less than 150 years old, the theology is very similar to that of the Arians, one of the oldest and most insidious heresies in Christian history.

Personally I'd rather line up with Athanasius.
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  #8  
Old Aug 30, '09, 8:25 am
Dan Parker Dan Parker is offline
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

NHInsider:
Dan-

I suspect that the reason the original post did not generate much traffic is because most people recognize a futile discussion.

I wouldn't get too involved in trying to discuss the Trinity with a Jehovah's Witness. You explicitly deny the Trinity and, of course, have your own version of Scripture from which to "prove" your points.

Dan:
Not sure what you mean by "too" involved, but that is your decision. However it is ironic that you make the claim about me that when the Opening Post used your own Catholic New American Bible.

I don't explicitly deny the Trinity. I recognize that no bible writer teaches it, unlike other legitimate bible doctrines. This recent post of mine illustrates that point.

Quote:
That is a good question because no bible writer teaches the doctrine of the Trinity. The basic concept which is the foundation of all legitimate doctrine is taught by one or more bible writers, in context. While not every detail is found in one passage, the basic concept will be there as a teaching.

For example, baptism. We don't need to take a water verse from one bible writer teaching one context and a dunking verse from another bible writer teaching in yet another context and a repentance verse from (you guessed it!) yet another bible writer teaching a doctrine other than baptism and then paste them all together like a patchwork quilt to form a doctrine that no bible writer ever articulated. Each of the synoptic gospels puts these basic elements together for us to form the basic concept of Christian baptism.

Not so the Trinity. It stands alone.

Catholics (and Protestants!) why do you believe it?

Dan

NHInsider:
Although the Watch Tower Society is less than 150 years old, the theology is very similar to that of the Arians, one of the oldest and most insidious heresies in Christian history.

Personally I'd rather line up with Athanasius.

Dan:
We adhere to the theology of the first century Christians and don't incorporate the continued doctrinal development after the apostles died. That includes both Arius and Athanasius.

Dan
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  #9  
Old Aug 30, '09, 10:17 am
Poetess Kera Poetess Kera is offline
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

If you don't mind my asking, and I apologize for it being rather off-topic, why do Jehovah's Witnesses deny the existence of Hell when Jesus spoke very plainly about certain sinners being liable to hellfire or the Gehenna of fire? And why do you believe that your church holds the correct interpretation of Scripture when it was only recently founded, rather than a Church that has been around since the time of the Apostles? Jesus said the gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church. If your church is the true church, wouldn't that be a direct denial of Jesus' statement?
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  #10  
Old Aug 30, '09, 11:05 am
FCEGM FCEGM is offline
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

A question, Dan: Was/Is the Father always Father?
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  #11  
Old Aug 30, '09, 11:15 am
Dan Parker Dan Parker is offline
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetess Kera View Post
If you don't mind my asking, and I apologize for it being rather off-topic, why do Jehovah's Witnesses deny the existence of Hell when Jesus spoke very plainly about certain sinners being liable to hellfire or the Gehenna of fire? And why do you believe that your church holds the correct interpretation of Scripture when it was only recently founded, rather than a Church that has been around since the time of the Apostles? Jesus said the gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church. If your church is the true church, wouldn't that be a direct denial of Jesus' statement?
Jehovah's Witnesses do not deny the existence of Hell. We also do not confuse Hell (Greek Hades) with Gehenna. If you believe that Hades and Gehenna are the same thing, which is what you say above (in fiery red!) then what about these Catholic Bibles?

Quote:
DRA Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell: nor suffer thy Holy One to see corruption.

NAB Acts 2:27 because you will not abandon my soul to the netherworld, nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption.

NJB Acts 2:27 for you will not abandon me to Hades or allow your holy one to see corruption.
This is spoken about Jesus. Did Jesus suffer in Hellfire when he died? Of course not!

I can discuss this at length with you, but the Hebrew Sheol and Greek Hades are the place where the dead are. Gehenna is figurative of destruction.

The Catholic Catechism as late as 1891 teaches a fiery hell. In 1994 the Catechism now says that hell's chief punishment is separation from God.

In 1999 Pope John Paul II made headlines by saying that hell should not be seen as a fiery underworld, but as separation from God.

If you are Catholic, why don't you follow the latest Catholic teaching on this?

Dan
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  #12  
Old Aug 30, '09, 12:08 pm
FCEGM FCEGM is offline
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Parker View Post
. . . .

In 1999 Pope John Paul II made headlines by saying that hell should not be seen as a fiery underworld, but as separation from God.

If you are Catholic, why don't you follow the latest Catholic teaching on this?

Dan
The teaching hasn't changed, Dan. Please see the Holy Father's text on Hell and see especially the footnote given for paragraph #3.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Note
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  #13  
Old Aug 30, '09, 4:39 pm
Dan Parker Dan Parker is offline
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

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Originally Posted by FCEGM View Post
The teaching hasn't changed, Dan. Please see the Holy Father's text on Hell and see especially the footnote given for paragraph #3.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Note
Can you quote me the part you feel proves that the Catechism has not changed?
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  #14  
Old Aug 30, '09, 4:49 pm
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

Dan,

Jesus loves you and He is saying to you, just as He said to St. Paul when he was Saul the Pharisee persecuting His Church;

"And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" (Acts 9:4)


My brother Dan, Open your heart to His Infinite Mercy and Love!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
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  #15  
Old Aug 30, '09, 5:14 pm
Poetess Kera Poetess Kera is offline
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Default Re: Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

Could you please answer my second question? Why do you believe in a man-made institution that has only been around since the nineteenth century, rather than a Church that has been around since the time of the Apostles? The Catholic Church also has an ongoing history of miracles: Eucharistic miracles, incorrupt bodies of saints, miracles of healing, Scapular miracles, miracles through visions of Jesus and Mary, etcetera. I would be very happy to show you videos on YouTube of these miracles if you would like to see them.
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