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  #1  
Old Oct 12, '09, 11:11 am
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lakotak lakotak is offline
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Default Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father

Hi

My sister is of the opinion that Jesus does not know the exact date of the end of time, only that the Father knows. How can this be refuted. She is not a practicing Catholic. She is saying this because Jesus once said that only the Father knew when the end of time was. I can't recall the passage that he said this, someone here I am sure can. How does the Church see this issue?
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  #2  
Old Oct 12, '09, 11:30 am
FCEGM FCEGM is offline
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Default Re: Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father

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Originally Posted by lakotak View Post
Hi

My sister is of the opinion that Jesus does not know the exact date of the end of time, only that the Father knows. How can this be refuted. She is not a practicing Catholic. She is saying this because Jesus once said that only the Father knew when the end of time was. I can't recall the passage that he said this, someone here I am sure can. How does the Church see this issue?
Hi, lakotak

Keep in mind that Christ is not only in the Nature of God, but of Man, and so in His human nature He is able to (and does) grow in the knowledge and wisdom that pertains to being a Man. So when addressed about "the End" we see Him limiting His answer to what He knows as Man, because this is information that is not for mankind to know, only to be prepared for. As St. Augustine said, "It was no part of His teaching duty to make it [the day of the General Judgment] known to us."

These two article by the late Fr. William Most are helpful:

http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...fm?worknum=242

http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...cfm?worknum=40
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  #3  
Old Oct 12, '09, 12:52 pm
ML561 ML561 is offline
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Default Re: Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father

Grace and Peace be with all of you.

Let's not concern ourselves with the end of time. Let's live our lives as servants of God the best we can. End of time preoccupations can drive people NUTS! I know this from some unfortunate entanglements with fundamentalist Christians some years ago, which almost steered me away from the Catholic Church. They were continually seeing signs in the world such as wars and natural disasters and saying that such and such a year would be the end of the world. I'm sure many of you know that there was a hysterical outbreak among some people that the year 2000 would mark the end of the world and we all know how that came out.

I think it would be best to just live each day serving God as well as we can and ask for the strength to carry out His will for us. Watching and searching for end times will only distract us from what is at hand for us to do at each given day. My prayers are with you.
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  #4  
Old Oct 12, '09, 1:38 pm
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lakotak lakotak is offline
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Default Re: Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father

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Grace and Peace be with all of you.

Let's not concern ourselves with the end of time. Let's live our lives as servants of God the best we can. End of time preoccupations can drive people NUTS! I know this from some unfortunate entanglements with fundamentalist Christians some years ago, which almost steered me away from the Catholic Church. They were continually seeing signs in the world such as wars and natural disasters and saying that such and such a year would be the end of the world. I'm sure many of you know that there was a hysterical outbreak among some people that the year 2000 would mark the end of the world and we all know how that came out.

I think it would be best to just live each day serving God as well as we can and ask for the strength to carry out His will for us. Watching and searching for end times will only distract us from what is at hand for us to do at each given day. My prayers are with you.
Hi,

Thank you for your reply. I am not overly concerned with the end of time. However, my sister made the statement and it is something that I wondered many, many years ago and thanks to the previously reply, I understand. Not to worry, I try to live each day as it come, but I do confess, I will be happy, if I am still alive here on earth, to see Him come.

Christ's Blessings to you.
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  #5  
Old Oct 12, '09, 2:56 pm
steve b steve b is offline
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Default Re: Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakotak View Post
Hi

My sister is of the opinion that Jesus does not know the exact date of the end of time, only that the Father knows. How can this be refuted.

She is not a practicing Catholic. She is saying this because Jesus once said that only the Father knew when the end of time was. I can't recall the passage that he said this, someone here I am sure can. How does the Church see this issue?

Many people think this is reason enough to say Jesus isn't God. Which isn't the case but some use that argument.

If Jesus told us the actual hour down to the second, would we put off all the necessary things we are to persevere in till the end? Given our nature, probably so..

But He says He comes like a thief in the night, which only makes sense if no body is expecting Him to come.....right? He wants us ready at all times... That's why He says to be watchful. That's why we don't know when the end will happen.

The bottomline, the Father doesn't want us to know that information for good reason. And that's basically what Jesus is saying when He gives us this information about what He says and does.


Jn 5:19
the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Jn 12:49
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

Jn 12:50
whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

Jn 14:10
The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Jn 14:31
I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.



BTW, the end of the world happens every second of every day for someone on this planet. Believe, that the apocalypse for that person happens as soon as they take their last breath. The next moment they will be judged, and they will know at that point. either they will be in heaven or hell for all eternity.
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  #6  
Old Oct 12, '09, 4:08 pm
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lakotak lakotak is offline
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Default Re: Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father

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Originally Posted by steve b View Post
Many people think this is reason enough to say Jesus isn't God. Which isn't the case but some use that argument.

If Jesus told us the actual hour down to the second, would we put off all the necessary things we are to persevere in till the end? Given our nature, probably so..

But He says He comes like a thief in the night, which only makes sense if no body is expecting Him to come.....right? He wants us ready at all times... That's why He says to be watchful. That's why we don't know when the end will happen.

The bottomline, the Father doesn't want us to know that information for good reason. And that's basically what Jesus is saying when He gives us this information about what He says and does.


Jn 5:19
the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Jn 12:49
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

Jn 12:50
whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

Jn 14:10
The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Jn 14:31
I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.



BTW, the end of the world happens every second of every day for someone on this planet. Believe, that the apocalypse for that person happens as soon as they take their last breath. The next moment they will be judged, and they will know at that point. either they will be in heaven or hell for all eternity.

Hi,

What my sister is saying is basically, that Jesus, in Heaven, still does not know when the world will end, only the Father has this information. My thought is if Jesus is co-equal with the Father, wouldn't he know what the Father knows now that he fulfilled what the Father required for our salvation through Him. This is her thoughts.
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  #7  
Old Oct 12, '09, 4:12 pm
FCEGM FCEGM is offline
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Default Re: Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father

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Originally Posted by lakotak View Post
Hi,

What my sister is saying is basically, that Jesus, in Heaven, still does not know when the world will end, only the Father has this information. My thought is if Jesus is co-equal with the Father, wouldn't he know what the Father knows now that he fulfilled what the Father required for our salvation through Him. This is her thoughts.
Your sister would be wise to listen to her brother.
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  #8  
Old Oct 12, '09, 4:55 pm
Magnus1981 Magnus1981 is offline
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Default Re: Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father

"So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." - Matthew 24:44

"The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers." - Luke 12:46
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  #9  
Old Oct 12, '09, 5:29 pm
mdcpensive1 mdcpensive1 is offline
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Default Re: Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakotak View Post
Hi

My sister is of the opinion that Jesus does not know the exact date of the end of time, only that the Father knows. How can this be refuted. She is not a practicing Catholic. She is saying this because Jesus once said that only the Father knew when the end of time was. I can't recall the passage that he said this, someone here I am sure can. How does the Church see this issue?

Jesus has a divine will and a human will. In his divine side He knows everything that the Father knows. If this were not so, then they would not be equal which they are. On His human side with this human intellect, He does grow in knowledge as time goes on during his life like tying one's shoes or brushing your teeth. His human intellect did not have the wisdom or knowledge of His divine one. Therefore, it was not to be revealed to us as part of the divine will.

mdcpensive1
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  #10  
Old Oct 15, '09, 1:55 pm
ryanoneil ryanoneil is offline
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Default Re: Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father

Christ's professed ignorance of the day and hour is hyperbole (overstatment), which was a common teaching device. Tradition maintains that it was a figurative expression, because the Father and the Son share everything in common, including their divine knowledge.

All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him. (Mt 11:27)

The Father loves the Son and has given everything over to him. (Jn 3:35)


The reason Jesus did not reveal it is because it was beyond the scope of what the Father intended Jesus the Son to reveal.
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  #11  
Old Oct 15, '09, 2:11 pm
Dan Parker Dan Parker is offline
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Default The holy spirit did not know either! Was ( Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakotak View Post
Hi

My sister is of the opinion that Jesus does not know the exact date of the end of time, only that the Father knows. How can this be refuted. She is not a practicing Catholic. She is saying this because Jesus once said that only the Father knew when the end of time was. I can't recall the passage that he said this, someone here I am sure can. How does the Church see this issue?
Here is the verse:
NJB Mark 13:32 'But as for that day or hour, nobody knows it, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son; no one but the Father.

NJB Matthew 24:36 But as for that day and hour, nobody knows it, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, no one but the Father alone.
BTW, if the holy spirit is a person like the Father and Son, then he did not know it either because other heavenly beings like angels did not know, only the Father knew.
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  #12  
Old Oct 15, '09, 2:13 pm
Dan Parker Dan Parker is offline
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Default Re: Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father

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Originally Posted by ryanoneil View Post
Christ's professed ignorance of the day and hour is hyperbole (overstatment), which was a common teaching device. Tradition maintains that it was a figurative expression, because the Father and the Son share everything in common, including their divine knowledge.

All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him. (Mt 11:27)

The Father loves the Son and has given everything over to him. (Jn 3:35)


The reason Jesus did not reveal it is because it was beyond the scope of what the Father intended Jesus the Son to reveal.
According to Mt 11:27, if the Holy Spirit were to be a person he would not know the Father or the Son.
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  #13  
Old Oct 15, '09, 3:34 pm
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catholic1seeks catholic1seeks is offline
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Default Re: The holy spirit did not know either! Was ( Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father)

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Originally Posted by Dan Parker View Post
BTW, if the holy spirit is a person like the Father and Son, then he did not know it either because other heavenly beings like angels did not know, only the Father knew.

1 Corinthians 2:10-12
But to us God hath revealed them by his Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him? So the things also that are of God, no man knoweth, but the Spirit of God.
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  #14  
Old Oct 15, '09, 9:00 pm
Dan Parker Dan Parker is offline
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Default Re: The holy spirit did not know either! Was ( Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father)

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Originally Posted by catholic1seeks View Post
1 Corinthians 2:10-12
But to us God hath revealed them by his Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him? So the things also that are of God, no man knoweth, but the Spirit of God.
This is one of the verses I use to show that just as the spirit of man is not a second or independent person of man, so too the spirit of God. If this is supposedly the third person of the Trinity, then why does the Son not know the things of God?
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  #15  
Old Oct 15, '09, 9:26 pm
Nathan Wagar Nathan Wagar is offline
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Default Re: Does Jesus know the exact end of time or only the Father

The Holy Spirit has personhood but is not a person in the sense of man, nor a spirit in the sense of angel, since He is the source of all as God.

Jesus divine nature and God the Father share all things, including their divine knowledge (Matt. 11:27; Jn 3:35, 10:15; 17:25). However, he also has a human nature, and he does not display any human knowledge of the time when the Father will send the Son to judge all nations, because this mystery lies beyond the scope of what the Father intends the Son to reveal.

The NT presents the incarnation of the Son as a period of humiliation and obedience (Ph 2:5-11). He condescended to live as humans properly should - in full dependences on and submission to God the Father by the poweer of the Holy Spirit. The tension held between the two natures is a mystery, so of necessity this explanation is a bit oversimplified. However, Jesu did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped. He took the form of a man instead of thinking it'd be cool to chill as God. This sets a pretty good precedent for the tension held between divine foreknowledge and the limits of his revelation to mankind.
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