The woman/women in Rev. 12 and Rev. 17

[Kawaii957]

Today I came across one of the worst bits of exegesis I have ever encountered. This guy at One Fold Blog asserts that the woman in Revelation 12 is the same woman in Revelation 17. He says this to refute John Martignoni's claim that the woman in Revelation 12 is Mary.

If it is only logical that the woman be a real person in Revelation 12, than the same logic must apply to the woman in Revelation 17; the two chapters refer to the same woman. In Rev. 12:6 the woman flees to the wilderness, in Rev. 17:3 John is taken to the wilderness where he finds the woman. It’s obviously the same woman. The dragon never became something different later in Revelation so why would anyone think the woman was something different- especially when we have the location to tie the two together?

No Christian would ever say that the woman in chapter 17 is Mary, so why accept that interpretation in chapter 12? The woman is a metaphor plain and simple. Martignoni defeated his own logic, unless of course his logic allows for double standards. I would ask him, but he’s probably tired of digging.

Apparently he only read Rev. 12:6 and Rev. 17:3 and paid no attention that the two women are diametrically opposed. The woman in Rev. 12 is the mother of the saints, whereas the woman in Rev. 17 is drunk on their blood. The woman in Rev 12 is the enemy of the dragon, whereas the woman in Rev. 17 rides upon him.

Absolutely pathetic.

[Nathan Wagar]

I've heard that one too. I laughed, because I knew it was wrong even as an evangelical four-square kid. Funny how, at the age of eight, in spite of what I was told, I secretly knew that woman in Rev 12:1 was Mary.

[Magnus1981]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the woman in Revelation 17 represent apostate Jerusalem?

[Foreigner]

Originally Posted by Magnus1981

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the woman in Revelation 17 represent apostate Jerusalem?

yes.

[Magnus1981]

Originally Posted by Foreigner

yes.

Good, because I was sure of it too.

It amazes me how anti-Catholics manipulate their reading of Revelation 17 to equate the woman (of Rev. 17) to the Catholic Church; the "Whore of Babylon" as the woman is also know. Peter warned us about "scripture twisters" (2 Peter 3:16).

[Secret Square]

It was always my understanding, and that of many Scripture scholars, that the "whore of Babylon" in Revelation 17 is the Roman Empire. She does, after all, sit on seven hills (as does Rome) and is "drunk with the blood of the saints" she had persecuted (the early Christian martyrs).

The exact identity of the "woman clothed with the sun" in Revelation 12 is a bit more obscure. The New American Bible (the Catholic translation used for Mass readings) in its footnotes claims the woman probably represents the "New Israel," i.e. the Christian community, not specifically Mary herself.

The reference to her fleeing from the dragon and hiding out for 1,260 days or for "a time, two times, and half a time" -- i.e. 3 1/2 years -- seems to indicate that she represents the Church suffering under persecution. (The persecution of the Jews described in the Books of Maccabees lasted 3 1/2 years, and ever since then, that time period symbolizes persecution.)

[Magnus1981]

Originally Posted by Secret Square

It was always my understanding, and that of many Scripture scholars, that the "whore of Babylon" in Revelation 17 is the Roman Empire. She does, after all, sit on seven hills (as does Rome) and is "drunk with the blood of the saints" she had persecuted (the early Christian martyrs)

It's true that pre-Christian Rome was often referred to as "Babylon", but the "Whore of Babylon" is apostate Jerusalem. Emphasis is placed on "whore" because it has ties ("fornicates" with) to Babylon. Jerusalem, interestingly, is a city that also sits on seven hills:

- Mount Gared
- Mount Goath
- Mount Acra
- Mount Bezetha
- Mount Moriah
- Mount Ophel
- Mount Zion

And don't forget the early Christian martyrs were persecuted by Romans with the help of the pharisees and Jewish informants.

[Foreigner]

Originally Posted by Magnus1981

It amazes me how anti-Catholics manipulate their reading of Revelation 17 to equate the woman (of Rev. 17) to the Catholic Church; the "Whore of Babylon" as the woman is also known. Peter warned us about "scripture twisters" (2 Peter 3:16).

It doesn't work.

Also, it is quite clear, if you read carefully, that "BABYLON" is Jerusalem. Do a search on "the great city" in Revelation and see.

[Magnus1981]

Originally Posted by Foreigner

It doesn't work.

Also, it is quite clear, if you read carefully, that "BABYLON" is Jerusalem. Do a search on "the great city" in Revelation and see.

I know.