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  #1  
Old Oct 21, '09, 6:50 pm
outatime outatime is offline
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Angry Catholic Church in Medieval Period

hi all

i have this friend who told me that the Caholic Church killed heaps of people during the medieval ages and the great crusade. He goes like it's a fact and adds more and more accusations that it is evil, pagan, bla bla bla. He added that in the Bible, it says "Beware of prophets that wear.." i forgot what it was, but he's saying that our priests are false prophets because of what they wear. He also says Caholics don't read and know the Bible that much.

He is kinda a geek and goes to Hillsong Church (protestant denomination). I think he got all this jiba jaba from watching Discovery, History, and National Geographic channels, and reading atheist and anti-catholic websites.

How do I respond to this? Are some of his accusations true? Is it a fact that the Catholic church commited murder during those days? I get irritated whenever people like him talks sh1t like that. It kills me.. All I could tell him is that "you should not be talking like that because religion is a big topic. you should have respect to people's beliefs just like I respect what you believe.." But I want to say something that will shatter him and prove him wrong that the Catholic Church is not what he thinks it is.

Thanks for reading and hope to hear soon.

Regards,

Aris
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  #2  
Old Oct 21, '09, 8:12 pm
VociMike VociMike is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Church in Medieval Period

Two words: "Prove It".

Also, if the Catholic Church is evil and pagan, and the bible came from the Catholic Church (yes it did), then his bible must be evil and pagan.
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  #3  
Old Oct 21, '09, 8:40 pm
willy willy is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Church in Medieval Period

Hi,

I am a student at the University of St.Michael's College Toronto, studying Mediaeval studies, affiliated with the Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval studies here. Although your friend made a fairly broad comment I can say this about the Crusades. Much of it is taken out of context. How they did get started was the Emperor in the east wrote a letter to the pope (forgive me i get the names mixed up so i omit them). The turks and muslims were threatening constantinople (modern day istanbul) and asked for the West's aid via military. Therefore, the Pope issues a letter asking all Christian princes in Europe to aid their Christian brothers in the East. The crusades started as a defensive war. The muslims attacked and were expanding. Other crusades, horrible things did happen,but many in principle were for just reasons. Of course, as with any church at any time, and any secular government or army, people are imperfect and have done horrible and immoral things. Nevertheless, for someone to take a few persons actions and then give a sweeping description of the entire group of people that person belonged to is unacademic and dishonest. It speaks more for the character of the person making such accusations that for the institution they are attempting to speak ill of. If you have any other questions more specific i will be more than happy to try to answer.
God Bless.
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  #4  
Old Oct 21, '09, 8:41 pm
Drawmack Drawmack is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Church in Medieval Period

Quote:
Originally Posted by outatime View Post
hi all

i have this friend who told me that the Caholic Church killed heaps of people during the medieval ages and the great crusade.
Give him credit where credit is due. Say that yes, unfortunately thousands did die during the crusades. However, go on to explain what the crusades were really about. There is a thread floating around here already that will be extremely helpful to you.

Quote:
He goes like it's a fact and adds more and more accusations that it is evil, pagan, bla bla bla.
I would take these accusations one at a time and, as Voci pointed out, as him what these accusations are based on. If he's got a ton of accusations maybe you would get him to agree to discuss only one of them in any given conversation and agree with him which one it will be ahead of time so you can be equipped for the conversation.

Quote:
He added that in the Bible, it says "Beware of prophets that wear.." i forgot what it was, but he's saying that our priests are false prophets because of what they wear.
Well, to help with that we'll need to know exactly what it is that he thinks the Bible says. Ask him for the book, chapter, and verse.

Quote:
He also says Caholics don't read and know the Bible that much.
To this I would say, you're correct that many Catholics do not read the Bible as much as they should and generally speaking Protestants are better at quoting Bible verses than Catholics. Then go on to explain that most practicing Catholic do know the Bible because they hear it read, in almost its entirety, every three years by simply attending Mass.

Quote:
He is kinda a geek and goes to Hillsong Church (protestant denomination).
I'm not sure what these two facts have to do with one another or why they have been tied together in a single sentence. However, if you're going to have apologetics type discussions with this person you will need to get your facts straight as well. Hillsong Church is not a Protestant denomination. Hillsong Church is a church within the Pentecostal denomination. (It took me about 30 seconds to figure that out from half-way around the world thanks to google.) This is important information because the Pentecostals tend to be big on speaking in tongues -- as evidenced by the name. This gives you an avenue into doing the same thing to him. Get your Biblical references on what Paul says about speaking in tongues and when it should be done. The Pentecostals do not follow what Paul says. (I'm intentionally being vague so you'll do some research on this.)

Quote:
I think he got all this jiba jaba from watching Discovery, History, and National Geographic channels, and reading atheist and anti-catholic websites.
Probably from all those places and talking to some former Catholics that he attends church with. I know I'm constantly telling my fellow parishioners that talking bad about Catholics is in direct conflict with Scriptural teachings about loving your neighbors.

Quote:
How do I respond to this? Are some of his accusations true? Is it a fact that the Catholic church commited murder during those days?
Research the Crusades and the Inquisition, there is a thread floating around here that will help you with that.

Quote:
I get irritated whenever people like him talks sh1t like that. It kills me.. All I could tell him is that "you should not be talking like that because religion is a big topic. you should have respect to people's beliefs just like I respect what you believe.."
That is a good place to start. You can insist on reasonable, rational, and respectful dialogue. But don't refuse dialogue if it is engaged in with both parties respecting those ground rules. The dialogue is what apologetics is all about.

Quote:
But I want to say something that will shatter him and prove him wrong that the Catholic Church is not what he thinks it is.
If you're looking to win then you have the wrong objective in mind. The only thing that you can do is be a good emissary. Show him Love and respect while at the same time correcting his error patiently and kindly. I can tell you right now you're not going to "shatter" him. You'll probably not "prove" him wrong on anything, and definitely won't "prove" him wrong on everything, because he'll have to accept your proof. What you will be able to do is give him some food for thought. But remember that the way you approach the dialogue is at least, if not more, important than what you actually say. When doing apologetics always remember what St. Francis said, "Preach the Gospel always; use words when you have to."
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  #5  
Old Oct 21, '09, 8:46 pm
diggerdomer diggerdomer is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Church in Medieval Period

Quote:
Originally Posted by outatime View Post
hi all

i have this friend who told me that the Caholic Church killed heaps of people during the medieval ages and the great crusade. He goes like it's a fact and adds more and more accusations that it is evil, pagan, bla bla bla. He added that in the Bible, it says "Beware of prophets that wear.." i forgot what it was, but he's saying that our priests are false prophets because of what they wear. He also says Caholics don't read and know the Bible that much.

He is kinda a geek and goes to Hillsong Church (protestant denomination). I think he got all this jiba jaba from watching Discovery, History, and National Geographic channels, and reading atheist and anti-catholic websites.

How do I respond to this? Are some of his accusations true? Is it a fact that the Catholic church commited murder during those days? I get irritated whenever people like him talks sh1t like that. It kills me.. All I could tell him is that "you should not be talking like that because religion is a big topic. you should have respect to people's beliefs just like I respect what you believe.." But I want to say something that will shatter him and prove him wrong that the Catholic Church is not what he thinks it is.

Thanks for reading and hope to hear soon.

Regards,

Aris
Of course the Catholic Church killed people (including innocent people) during the middle ages. So did every other religion and nation. This doesn't excuse anything, but perhaps puts it in better context.

Regarding comments about what priests wear and that Catholics don't read and know the Bible so much...pure rubbish.
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  #6  
Old Oct 21, '09, 9:44 pm
survive survive is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Church in Medieval Period

Go to the top of this page, click "faith", go to the top of the page that comes up, click "library", take notes, rehearse and tell us how it went. There's information on the Middle Ages there. Be aware that almost all the "dark side of Christian/Catholic/whatever history" never even happened, and the little that did usually happened for better reasons than we grew up hearing about in most places.
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  #7  
Old Oct 22, '09, 12:01 am
outatime outatime is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Church in Medieval Period

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
I'm not sure what these two facts have to do with one another or why they have been tied together in a single sentence. However, if you're going to have apologetics type discussions with this person you will need to get your facts straight as well. Hillsong Church is not a Protestant denomination. Hillsong Church is a church within the Pentecostal denomination. (It took me about 30 seconds to figure that out from half-way around the world thanks to google.) This is important information because the Pentecostals tend to be big on speaking in tongues -- as evidenced by the name. This gives you an avenue into doing the same thing to him. Get your Biblical references on what Paul says about speaking in tongues and when it should be done. The Pentecostals do not follow what Paul says. (I'm intentionally being vague so you'll do some research on this.)
Sorry I was being vague on that one. I should have elaborated. He actually calls himself a Protestant Christian. That's how I came up classifying Hillsong as a Protestant. Also their Church looks at the Bible as the sole authoritative figure. Isn't that what all Protestant do anyway? I've met a couple of his friends..and I tell ya when they knew I was Catholic, they started saying they will pray for me. One of them even laid his hand on me to pray! It seems like they've been educated by their Church leaders about anti-catholicism.

He is a geek in a way he is fascinated with science and the universe. Sometimes he sounds like an atheist saying the Bible was just all made up. But then again, when it comes to religion topic, he suddenly swtiches mode that he's a Christian. Come to think of it, I can actually use that as an argument next time! lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
If you're looking to win then you have the wrong objective in mind. The only thing that you can do is be a good emissary. Show him Love and respect while at the same time correcting his error patiently and kindly. I can tell you right now you're not going to "shatter" him. You'll probably not "prove" him wrong on anything, and definitely won't "prove" him wrong on everything, because he'll have to accept your proof. What you will be able to do is give him some food for thought. But remember that the way you approach the dialogue is at least, if not more, important than what you actually say. When doing apologetics always remember what St. Francis said, "Preach the Gospel always; use words when you have to."
yeah you're right nobody wins an argument. besides we all have our strong opinion on something. but sometimes, I'm tired of being a nice guy to him. he attacks my faith with those false accusations, and i've never said anything bad about his..It's like i'm giving him both of my cheeks to get slapped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willy View Post
Hi,
Of course, as with any church at any time, and any secular government or army, people are imperfect and have done horrible and immoral things. Nevertheless, for someone to take a few persons actions and then give a sweeping description of the entire group of people that person belonged to is unacademic and dishonest. It speaks more for the character of the person making such accusations that for the institution they are attempting to speak ill of. If you have any other questions more specific i will be more than happy to try to answer.
God Bless.
Thanks, that was very informative!

Quote:
Originally Posted by diggerdomer View Post
Of course the Catholic Church killed people (including innocent people) during the middle ages. So did every other religion and nation. This doesn't excuse anything, but perhaps puts it in better context.

Regarding comments about what priests wear and that Catholics don't read and know the Bible so much...pure rubbish.
good point! every religion has its ups and downs. there's always a Judas in the Catholic Church..


Quote:
Originally Posted by survive View Post
Go to the top of this page, click "faith", go to the top of the page that comes up, click "library", take notes, rehearse and tell us how it went. There's information on the Middle Ages there. Be aware that almost all the "dark side of Christian/Catholic/whatever history" never even happened, and the little that did usually happened for better reasons than we grew up hearing about in most places.
thanks, will do!
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  #8  
Old Oct 22, '09, 7:13 am
Drawmack Drawmack is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Church in Medieval Period

Quote:
Originally Posted by outatime View Post
Sorry I was being vague on that one. I should have elaborated. He actually calls himself a Protestant Christian. That's how I came up classifying Hillsong as a Protestant.
They are a Protestant church, but they are not a denomination. They belong to the Pentecostal denomination which is a Protestant denomination. It might be a good idea to do a little research into what these terms mean.

Quote:
Also their Church looks at the Bible as the sole authoritative figure. Isn't that what all Protestant do anyway?
No, that is a misrepresentation. Protestants look at the Bible as the highest authority not the sole authority. If the Bible were the sole authority there would be no need for pastors. The reason it is named Sola Scriptura is because it denies Scripture and Tradition being equal. All of the Solas actually work this way. The Catholic Church said it was A and B and the Protestants said it was only A. The only thing really being denied with any Sola is what that B is. OH, many people will argue with me on this one but pay attention to how many of those who argue are actually Protestant.

Quote:
I've met a couple of his friends..and I tell ya when they knew I was Catholic, they started saying they will pray for me. One of them even laid his hand on me to pray! It seems like they've been educated by their Church leaders about anti-catholicism.
The Pentecostals generally believe that Catholics are not Christians because of their, excessively strong, views on praying to and for the dead. (I've gotten in plenty of discussions with Pentecostals about this one.) On the other hand, anytime someone wants to pray for me (including Mormons and Jehovah Wittinesses) I simply say thank you because they really are just trying to help. However, I wouldn't let them lay a hand on me. I'd grab their wrist and be like the Bible says "lovingly correct" you are invading my personal space.

Quote:
He is a geek in a way he is fascinated with science and the universe. Sometimes he sounds like an atheist saying the Bible was just all made up. But then again, when it comes to religion topic, he suddenly swtiches mode that he's a Christian. Come to think of it, I can actually use that as an argument next time! lol
Sounds like he is reading atheist and religious materials at the same time. Your friend sounds very confused. Honestly if this were my friend, i.e. someone I cared deeply about, I'd be putting myself aside -- letting him say whatever he wanted about me -- to clear up this confusion he is facing within. Which is worse him becoming an atheist or him staying a Protestant? And, how can you expect him to be nice and respectful to you and your beliefs when he is tearing himself apart inside by trying to follow two Gods?

Quote:
yeah you're right nobody wins an argument. besides we all have our strong opinion on something. but sometimes, I'm tired of being a nice guy to him. he attacks my faith with those false accusations, and i've never said anything bad about his..It's like i'm giving him both of my cheeks to get slapped.
Jesus didn't tell us not to ask the person to stop smacking us.
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  #9  
Old Oct 22, '09, 7:33 am
MercyMia MercyMia is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Church in Medieval Period

The Church saved Europe from being destroyed by Muslim forces. At one point, land as far as Spain was under the control of the Moores. To this day, Spain is a sore spot for many Muslims and Spain is erased from text books. The early Crusades were successful...later crusades had some corruption, partly because some of the mercenary fighters did not even have faith, they were just in it for the battle.

As far as the inquisition in Europe...the Catholic Church did not kill a single person. It was up to individual governments, some which used Church teachings a guide for what was treason. The numbers have been exaggerated by many anti-Catholics. I have heard death tolls sighted higher than the actual living population on earth at the time. The accepted number is between 2,000-5,000 people, but most likely closer to the lower estimate and this was over several hundered years. In comparison, Protestant wars were far more bloody in a much shorter span. Martin Luther caused the death of hundreds of thousands in the peasant uprisings. Jews and Muslims living in Europe were excluded from inquisition trials, it was only people who CLAIMED to be Christian while still practicing pagan beliefs because they wanted power and influence and needed to say they were Christian to get it. Again, it was up to local officials to decide. The punishment for treason was death...as it was the punishment for many crimes. The inquisition courts were far more lenient than the regular courts and often times thieves and murderers would say blasphemy during their trial to get moved to the inquisition court. Most people living in the country never heard of encountered the inquisition, it was only in populated areas. I heard an atheist historian on a radio program say that less than 1% of the population of Europe actually encountered the inquisition.

Now, many protestant churches that are but a few decades old can easily insult the Catholic Churches history because they have no history themselves so they cannot be held accountable for anything since they plain didn't exist yet. Convenient, yes?
Ask him for the name of one person who lived in the 5th century from his particular church? 6th century? 12th century? Just one person who affiliated with his church that exists in history.
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  #10  
Old Oct 22, '09, 7:37 am
Drawmack Drawmack is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Church in Medieval Period

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercyMia View Post
Protestant wars were far more bloody in a much shorter span. Martin Luther caused the death of hundreds of thousands in the peasant uprisings.
Do you have sources for this which are not Catholic in origin (Please note that asking for sources is not the same as denying something happened.)
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  #11  
Old Oct 22, '09, 7:54 am
MercyMia MercyMia is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Church in Medieval Period

Please read Martin Luther's own words in his peice, Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants.


Luther urged that the secular authorities crush the peasant rebellion.
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  #12  
Old Oct 22, '09, 8:30 am
Drawmack Drawmack is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Church in Medieval Period

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercyMia View Post
Please read Martin Luther's own words in his peice, Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants.


Luther urged that the secular authorities crush the peasant rebellion.
Okay, I read that. I seems that Luther is condemning the rebels. He is condemning them on multiple fronts and saying that you must defend yourself against them because they will attack. Gee, it sounds very much like the things the Pope's said about Muslims when calling for the Crusades.
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  #13  
Old Oct 22, '09, 8:41 am
MercyMia MercyMia is offline
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Originally Posted by Drawmack View Post
Okay, I read that. I seems that Luther is condemning the rebels. He is condemning them on multiple fronts and saying that you must defend yourself against them because they will attack. Gee, it sounds very much like the things the Pope's said about Muslims when calling for the Crusades.
The main issue was that these people were taking Martin's Luther idea that there was not authority in the Catholic Church and they were putting authority in their own hands. They were basically interperting the bible to justify doing anything they wanted. It was scary for Luther to see his own teachings used against him.

Also, the piece I cited is a good starting point...there are many, many sources in which Luther is even more harsh towards the cause for their destruction. He also calls for taking texts away from Jews and burning their houses. Did you know that Hitler is quoted as saying Martin Luther was his single biggest inspiration?
Martin Luther called Moses a devil. Moses!

None of this is directly related to the Crusades, just a slight point that removing the Catholic Church from the scene does not mean peace and joy 24/7 and in many cases caused more confusion and bloodshed.
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  #14  
Old Oct 22, '09, 8:46 am
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didymus didymus is offline
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Default Re: Catholic Church in Medieval Period

Check out this blog entry from the SF author Michael Flynn -- dunno if he is Catholic or just likes his history straight but he does a good job defending the Church from the usual accusations -- in this case flung by an atheist who's repeating a lot of the hand-me-down fundy charges: Constantine invented Catholicism, the Church made teaching people to read illegal, &c.

He lists good books about the Middle Ages here.

For some good historical fiction check out Flynn's novel Eifeleim, about a priest in Germany right before the Plague.
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Old Oct 22, '09, 8:53 am
Drawmack Drawmack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MercyMia View Post
The main issue was that these people were taking Martin's Luther idea that there was not authority in the Catholic Church and they were putting authority in their own hands. They were basically interperting the bible to justify doing anything they wanted. It was scary for Luther to see his own teachings used against him.

Also, the piece I cited is a good starting point...there are many, many sources in which Luther is even more harsh towards the cause for their destruction. He also calls for taking texts away from Jews and burning their houses. Did you know that Hitler is quoted as saying Martin Luther was his single biggest inspiration?
Martin Luther called Moses a devil. Moses!

None of this is directly related to the Crusades, just a slight point that removing the Catholic Church from the scene does not mean peace and joy 24/7 and in many cases caused more confusion and bloodshed.
The point I'm getting at is that you shouldn't just start mud-slinging with people. Show them why what they say is wrong, but don't start mud-slinging back and forth. Human history, all human history, is littered with atrocities. It's just silly to mud-sling back and forth. I mean, really, if you bring up Hitler citing Luther as an inspiration your saying that Luther is responsible for what a mad man did hundreds of years after his death. On the other hand the listener can say that Joseph Ratzinger was a member of the Hitler youth. See, mud slinging is just silly and doesn't get anyone anywhere.
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