Responding to "Is God Pro-Life"

LovinmyLife · #1 Oct 21, '09, 6:56 pm

I am a member of a Pro-Life group on Facebook, and one of the discussions someone started was titled "Is God Pro-Life". it then proceeds to list a number of bible passages, which I tried to summarize a bit so you wouldn’t have to look them up. Supposedly these all show that God isn’t Pro-Life. I was hoping to address the quotes that he had out of context or misinterpreted, but I also want to address the root of the problem.

Can God be Pro-Life? Obviously, He has commanded US not to kill (and therefore doesn’t want us killing other people), but as He gave us life, it is hardly wrong for Him to take it back, right?

I guess I’m just looking for a bit of guidance. How would you respond to this? Some of the passages he cited were easily explained, since a few were out of context (such as King Solomon ordering the baby divided in half and God testing Abraham) but how would I respond to the others, where God does order the deaths of others. I know things were different under the Old Law, but I feel like I’m in need of some edumacating

Here are the passages if you’re interested

Hosea 9:11-16 (slaying little ones, punishing Ephraim)
Hosea 13:16, 2 Kings 15:16, Psalms 137:8-9, Isaiah 13:15-18(pregnant women ripped open, little ones dashed)
1 Samuel 15:3 (put to death both man and woman, child and infant)
Psalms 135:8, Psalms 136:10,Exodus 12:29 (smiting Egyptian first-borns)
Judges 11:30-40, (Jephthah's vow to sacrifice first person he saw should he win battle, then has to sacrifice his daughter)
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (stoning rebellious son)
2 Kings 2:23-24 (boys mocking Elisha, killed by bears)
1 Samuel 15:11-18 (Samuel telling Saul that the Lord ordered all the Amalekites be slain)
1 Kings 16:34 (builder of Jerico's sons dying?)
Jeremiah 11:22-23 (God punishing the men of Anathoth by killing their children by sword and famine)
Jeremiah 19:7-9 (more punishment, "make them (F)eat the flesh of their sons..."
Lamentations 2:20-22 (more baby eating and death)
Matthew 19:29 (anyone who left behind thier family will inherit eternal life)
Leviticus 26:30 (punishments for disobedience)

Out of Context or don’t make sense:
Numbers 5:11-21 (testing a possibly unfaithful wife and poisoning her)
Leviticus 20:9 (anyone who curses mother or father shall be put to death)
2 Kings 6:28-29 (time of famine, eating babies)
Judges 19:24-29 (concubine raped, then cut into 12 pieces)
1 Kings 3:24-25 (Solomon holding family court "divide the child in two)
Genesis 22:9-10 (God's testing Abraham by ordering him to kill his son)
Mark 7:9 ("You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition" doesn't make any sense in his context, possibly miss quoted)
Proverbs 13:24, Proverbs 19:18, Proverbs 22:15, Proverbs 23:13-14, Proverbs 29:15, (spare the rod, spoil the child")

Thanks for any help you can give me,
~Catherine

MarcoPolo · #2 Oct 21, '09, 8:26 pm

Some potential answers for you:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/qui...ions/?qid=2336

On CAL, Jimmy Akin talked about the "Old Testament God"

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

I just heard Jimmy Akin answer this question in the archived Catholic Answers Live from August 22, 2002. MP3 here. His answer begins at the 40:40 mark.

Another article by Jimmy Akin can be read here.

Here is another handy reference list of supposed "contradictions" in the Bible, many of which address so-called "God is evil" passages.

MarcoPolo · #3 Oct 21, '09, 8:32 pm

If you have a Bible commentary, you might want to look up those passages to see how the Church interprets some of them too.

Here's a good source of may ECFs, etc...
And here's Haydock's Commentary.

livi · #4 Oct 21, '09, 9:09 pm

God is pro-life because He told us not to kill.

VociMike · #5 Oct 22, '09, 8:32 am

The 10,000 pound elephant in this argument is that these are all Old Testament passages, while we Christians are a New Testament people. Do those who post these passages ever stop to wonder why they cannot find similar passages in the New Testament? Does it not pique their curiosity?

LovinmyLife · #6 Oct 22, '09, 4:45 pm

thanks for all the info. those links are great!

Well, someone else responded to the poster first, and after reading their conversation, I'm pretty sure this guy was just looking for a fight rather then really trying to understand these passages. He seems to be the "angry at God" type, asking why God isn't subject to His own rules. I simply pointed out that God is our Father and we are His children. He knows what is best for us, even if we cannot recognize it.

he asked "Does the fact that God created something give him complete and final jurisdiction over it if he does something bad?"

So i tried explaining it like this:
"Yes, the fact that God created not just something, but EVERYTHING gives Him complete and final jurisdiction over it. He does not do bad, as bad is a human concept. Jesus teaches to pray in the bible "Our Father, who art in Heaven, Hallowed by Thy name. THY WILL BE DONE..." we are His creations, and subject to His will."

was i on the right track?

gearhead · #7 Oct 22, '09, 4:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by VociMike

The 10,000 pound elephant in this argument is that these are all Old Testament passages, while we Christians are a New Testament people. Do those who post these passages ever stop to wonder why they cannot find similar passages in the New Testament? Does it not pique their curiosity?

It certainly piqued Marcion's curiosity.

LovinmyLife · #8 Oct 22, '09, 4:55 pm

my computer is being silly, and i didn't see your last post, VociMike. Thats an excellent point. the only two new testament passages he cited were not even relevent. i'll have to point that out, thanks!

LovinmyLife · #9 Oct 22, '09, 6:31 pm

*sigh
I'm starting to wish I hadn't gotten into this. another guy has joined in, and is attempting to refute all my points. it can be summed up like this:

me: "As our Father, He knows whats best for us, even when we cannot recognize it ourselves."

him: "You mean to say, it's impossible for us to correlate him as a megalomaniacal, terrible child-abusing "Father", even if there may be evidence?"

how does one respond to things like this? i know there is no way I'm going to change his mind, i've met his type before. he's lost his faith and wants to take everyone down with him.
another example:

Me: "Yes, the fact that God created not just something, but EVERYTHING gives Him complete and final jurisdiction over it. He does not do bad, as bad is a human concept."

him: "Bad"? Would you consider intentionally causing a massive flood that annihilates a city or place filled with people bad? Would you consider allowing an evil serpent, say an evil conscious human being i.e. murderer, violent rapist, evildoer in general, etc., perhaps to dwell in a society where supposed moral and or amoral people live? Would you consider it bad if you hire an assassin to murder one of your loyal and faithful friend's family to prove that assassin that that friend will remain loyal and faithful to you?"

is there anything I can or should say? I'm really new to defending my faith, so i'm not very good at it

gearhead · #10 Oct 23, '09, 6:15 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LovinmyLife

*sigh
I'm starting to wish I hadn't gotten into this. another guy has joined in, and is attempting to refute all my points. it can be summed up like this:

me: "As our Father, He knows whats best for us, even when we cannot recognize it ourselves."

him: "You mean to say, it's impossible for us to correlate him as a megalomaniacal, terrible child-abusing "Father", even if there may be evidence?"

how does one respond to things like this? i know there is no way I'm going to change his mind, i've met his type before. he's lost his faith and wants to take everyone down with him.

I think he could probably tone down the anger a bit, but he does have a point.

Here's the situation as I see it. You have we choices for our approach:

- argue that we can't tell right from wrong. This means that God gets off the hook because we can't judge the goodness of his purported actions, but it also has other consequences: for instance, how would you tell God from Satan? Both presumably have the power to do supernatural feats that would astound any mortal human; the key difference in telling them apart is that one is good and one is evil. But since this argument assumes that we can't tell good from evil, we have no means available to distinguish between them. Also, I'd argue that if we can't tell whether things are good or evil, then we don't have the "full knowledge" that the Catholic Church says is a prerequisite for "mortal sin".

- argue that we can tell right from wrong. While we can make allowances for the fact that we're finite beings who aren't in full posession of all the facts, this assumes that our moral sense is generally a reliable guide for distinguishing between good and evil.

I can see how your line of reasoning works in some situations: for example, a child might consider getting a vaccination to be an unpleasant, undesirable experience, but the parent knows that it's beneficial because it will prevent the child from getting sick. However, things break down when we try to apply this sort of thinking to the Christian God:

- there's the problem of omnipotence. Going back to the analogy, a painful vaccination is better than no vaccination at all, but if a parent had the option, he'd choose the benefit of the vaccination without the pain of the needle. But the parent doesn't have this option; a painless vaccination is beyond his power. However, nothing is beyond the power of an almighty god.

- it can be argued that there are some actions attributed to God that can't possibly be beneficial.

MarcoPolo · #11 Oct 23, '09, 3:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gearhead

if a parent had the option, he'd choose the benefit of the vaccination without the pain of the needle. But the parent doesn't have this option; a painless vaccination is beyond his power. However, nothing is beyond the power of an almighty god.

That is sound thinking, and I think if God had not come to earth Incarnate and set the example of suffering Himself, then there wouldn't be much need to give such "evils" a second look.

By the way, I think the answer to "we can/can't know truth" is that we can. There is just reckless abandonment of Scriptural interpretation out there (thanks largely in part to the Reformation, or perhaps even more with modern Fundamentalism). There is a corporate pedigree to the Old Testament which reveals the walk of the faithful servant of Christ in the New Testament. But the 21st century, scandal-seeking Fundamentalist interpretation will apply the morality to which humans are bound to the Divine and thus cry "evil!!!" In understanding such pains and trials, however, you have hit the nail on the head by making the parent child analogy.

Spirithound · #12 Oct 23, '09, 5:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LovinmyLife

is there anything I can or should say? I'm really new to defending my faith, so i'm not very good at it

There is a point where we just need to stop casting our pearls before swine (Matt. 7:6).
If this is affecting you negatively, get out now. Lee Stroebel's "The Case for Faith" has a chapter about the problem of pain. Also, CS Lewis wrote "The Problem of Pain". An excellent book.

You are right in comparing God to a loving but firm father who disciplines his children. There are some "disciplinary measures" which are beyond our limited knowledge, but also know that there are another class of seemingly over-harsh divine disciplines for which we simply choose not to see the justice. In the afterlife, not one single soul will be able to say that his/her fate is unjust. Even those in the depths of hell will know that they deserve to be there. If only we could be more honest with ourselves now, we may avoid greater pains later.

Testing is also another purpose of bad things happening to good people. I have noticed that it is often those who are relatively comfortable who look at those in pain and have their faith damaged. We who know how to carry our crosses know that salvation begins at Calvary.