Dominican Sisters of the Sick Poor Renewal - Page 2

jwinch2 · #16 May 14, '12, 5:09 pm

Since you ignored it, I will ask again. Is the Prior Provincial for the Southern Dominican Province aware of your efforts, and he is supporting them?

Cloisters · #17 May 14, '12, 5:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwinch2

I have never heard of a Dominican working on such a project in secret. Surely his provincial knows that he is helping you? If so, then it is hardly a secret and the provincial must be supporting the process in someway. You list your location as approximately Greensboro, North Carolina which means that you fall in the Province of St. Martin de Porres of the Order of Preachers. fr. Christopher T. Eggleton, O.P. is the Prior Provincial of the Southern Province. So, here is a simple and direct question. Is fr. Eggleton aware of, and supporting your efforts?

There was a Canadian layman working with me, and he sent the website address to a lot of Dominican installations. Just who he sent it to, I'm not sure. I know the site has had hits from Dominicans, so I really don't know.

I will see to the matter, though.

Blessings,
Cloisters

Cloisters · #18 May 14, '12, 5:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwinch2

Since you ignored it, I will ask again. Is the Prior Provincial for the Southern Dominican Province aware of your efforts, and he is supporting them?

I did not ignore your question. It was part of the other answer.

Blessings,
Cloisters

jwinch2 · #19 May 14, '12, 5:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloisters

I did not ignore your question. It was part of the other answer.

Blessings,
Cloisters

No, it was not.

I will be forwarding the link you provided as well as a link to this thread to the Southern Province of the Dominican Friars.

Cloisters · #20 May 14, '12, 5:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwinch2

No, it was not.

I will be forwarding the link you provided as well as a link to this thread to the Southern Province of the Dominican Friars.

I just said that the Canadian working with me sent the link to a number of Dominican installations, and I do not know if the Southern Provincial knows about it.

Blessings,
Cloisters

jwinch2 · #21 May 14, '12, 5:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloisters

I just said that the Canadian working with me sent the link to a number of Dominican installations, and I do not know if the Southern Provincial knows about it.

Blessings,
Cloisters

But you are fully aware of whether or not he is supporting you, which was part of what I asked. According to your profile, you live about two hours away from a Dominican priory and fall into the territory of the Southern Province. Yet, you have not sought them out in anyway for help. You are enlisting the help of a Canadian person and potentially a friar who seems to be working without the knowledge of his prior or provincial. You already have the name "Dominican" on your webpage, but you have not involved the Master or one of his representatives in the process at any level.

None of this is adding up.

Cloisters · #22 May 14, '12, 5:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwinch2

Then you are fully aware that he is not supporting you, which was part of what I asked.

I will have to hear from him directly on that.

As I said, I do not know where the group will put down roots, but it is totally legal for me to advertise it. We do know how to assemble resources, which is what our role is. The living of the life is up to the aspirants themselves. They have a right to assemble.

Blessings,
Cloisters.

jwinch2 · #23 May 14, '12, 5:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloisters

I will have to hear from him directly on that.

If you have never heard from him and have no idea if he has been even contacted or informed, then you know for a fact that he is not supporting you. If he was, you would know about it.

Cloisters · #24 May 14, '12, 5:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwinch2

But you are fully aware of whether or not he is supporting you, which was part of what I asked. According to your profile, you live about two hours away from a Dominican priory and fall into the territory of the Southern Province. Yet, you have not sought them out in anyway for help. You are enlisting the help of a Canadian person and potentially a friar who seems to be working without the knowledge of his prior or provincial. You already have the name "Dominican" on your webpage, but you have not involved the Master or one of his representatives in the process at any level.

None of this is adding up.

The Canadian volunteered his time to email the links and gather some historical articles.

I have not asked the assistance of the Southern Province because I don't know where the group will emerge.

My husband has fallen away from the church, and my attendance at any meetings is out of the question. I run an isolate lay Dominican group

Blessings,
Cloisters

SRLAUREL · #25 May 14, '12, 6:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloisters

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

There have been inquiries for the renewal, and until I have the friar's permission I will not divulge his identity.

We are not a fraud. We are offering the possibility of renewing a charism. We are in contact with canonists, and the only way the renewal group will get resources is to show an effort so that the religious will see that they have a good chance of not wasting their time.

There are two schools of thought on the emergence of charisms--yours and those who share mine. There might be a gaping hole, but I see it as a hole in which a seed can be planted by those whom the Lord intends to send, should this renewal effort be His will.

Blessings,
Cloisters

Actually, we are not speaking of schools of thought at all. We are speaking of an analysis of how legitimate charisms emerge and how something changes from a dream or vision to an actual gift of the Holy Spirit to Church and world, or not. The key --- as you say --- is that there is still a gaping hole and the seed CAN be planted, but as yet, has not been. No seed, no growth, no charism. Not yet anyway. How many of your projects are empty holes still waiting for a seed to be planted, much less waiting for some fruitful growth at the present time? And how many of your inquirers knew this before contacting you?

My own concern is it is very difficult to tell what is real and what is not when one looks at your website or reads posts like the one I first asked about here. I was glad when you wrote clearly that there was no community, no formation program, no formation personnel, etc, etc. I thought that was a step forward. Since then I have found your posts equivocal at best.

In that vein, for instance, when you say you are in touch with canonists does this mean you are working with them regularly with this project as a focus, or does it mean what it did when you (for whatever reason) misrepresented that a hermit-canonist was working "step by step" with you on the eremitical expression of your organization and this claim was found to be untrue? One can write, email, or call a canonist with a question about lay associations of the faithful and will likely get a response in return, but that hardly means that we are in touch in a genuine working relationship. For that matter one can email them every day and never get a response at all and could still write accurately, "We are in touch with canonists." So, please, what does it actually mean when you say you are in contact with canonists?

jwinch2 · #26 May 14, '12, 8:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloisters

The Canadian volunteered his time to email the links and gather some historical articles.

I have not asked the assistance of the Southern Province because I don't know where the group will emerge.

My husband has fallen away from the church, and my attendance at any meetings is out of the question. I run an isolate lay Dominican group

Blessings,
Cloisters

So, basically nothing whatsoever has been done and you have no contact at all with anyone who is able to move the process forward within the Order of Preachers or at the Diocesan level. In addition, you have no canonical standing of any kind and no permission to even seek such standing. The only things you do have are a website where claims or at the least insinuations are made regarding affiliation with the Order of Preachers thought use of the Dominican name and the shield, both with no permission to do so.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

Cloisters · #27 May 15, '12, 3:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwinch2

So, basically nothing whatsoever has been done and you have no contact at all with anyone who is able to move the process forward within the Order of Preachers or at the Diocesan level. In addition, you have no canonical standing of any kind and no permission to even seek such standing. The only things you do have are a website where claims or at the least insinuations are made regarding affiliation with the Order of Preachers thought use of the Dominican name and the shield, both with no permission to do so.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

"Getting a bishop's permission to start a community" went out when the new Code of Canon Law was promulgated in 1983. The new CCL recognized the right of the faithful to assemble, and if a new community comes of it, so be it.

There are two Dominican contemplative communities who have to meet certain criteria before they are aggregated into the Order, but they still wear the habit, and still call themselves Dominicans. Those are Lockport and Mt Tabor, respectively.

Fr. Gambari, the "guru" of new foundations, has written a number of books on the process of founding charisms. He says that the groups wishing aggregation with an established order have to meet that order's criteria for such. But that will be waaay down the road for any group that is founded even today at this moment. (20 years or more).

About the only thing anyone in the order can do is tell people that someone is acting as contact point and resource assembler at x site, and for more information email them at the email address given.

The aspirants themselves--known as a preparatory association--have to live the life before anything can be done at any level, or 'move the process forward' as you put it. They are designated as both lay association and preparatory association at that stage, and they are permitted distinctive garb outside the house/convent. They are also permitted to take religious names.

When they get a working set of constitutions, THEN they go to the bishop to ask for recognition as a community. This is known as being constituted a Private Association of Christ's Faithful with the Intention of Becoming an Institute of Religious Life. The bishop will give them a letter of recognition.

They stay at this level for a number of years--Fr. Gambari and the IRL both say to give all levels of the process at least five years. The community has to grow and receive postulants. When they have persevered with formation and reception of new members, they can be raised to Public Association, and are able to make new foundations (establish convents in other cities). After 10 years of steady growth, they become Diocesan Right. After 25 years, they are raised to Pontifical Right.

So, yes your summary was correct. We have a webpage advertising the fact that someone cares enough about the world to try to resurrect a visiting nurse charism that was beloved in the Church.

We have also developed a website (still very much under construction) promoting nursing orders in the US: http://cloisters.tripod.com/us_nursing/ This site was built in response to watching congregations merge with each other, and our great healthcare systems being sold to seculars.

Blessings,
Cloisters

Cloisters · #28 May 15, '12, 3:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRLAUREL

Actually, we are not speaking of schools of thought at all. We are speaking of an analysis of how legitimate charisms emerge and how something changes from a dream or vision to an actual gift of the Holy Spirit to Church and world, or not. The key --- as you say --- is that there is still a gaping hole and the seed CAN be planted, but as yet, has not been. No seed, no growth, no charism. Not yet anyway. How many of your projects are empty holes still waiting for a seed to be planted, much less waiting for some fruitful growth at the present time? And how many of your inquirers knew this before contacting you?

My own concern is it is very difficult to tell what is real and what is not when one looks at your website or reads posts like the one I first asked about here. I was glad when you wrote clearly that there was no community, no formation program, no formation personnel, etc, etc. I thought that was a step forward. Since then I have found your posts equivocal at best.

In that vein, for instance, when you say you are in touch with canonists does this mean you are working with them regularly with this project as a focus, or does it mean what it did when you (for whatever reason) misrepresented that a hermit-canonist was working "step by step" with you on the eremitical expression of your organization and this claim was found to be untrue? One can write, email, or call a canonist with a question about lay associations of the faithful and will likely get a response in return, but that hardly means that we are in touch in a genuine working relationship. For that matter one can email them every day and never get a response at all and could still write accurately, "We are in touch with canonists." So, please, what does it actually mean when you say you are in contact with canonists?

What website are you looking at? I thought we had made everything clear on our CONF site: http://cloisters.tripod.com/conf/

One of our affiliate founders has contact with two different canonists, one on a working basis, and she will forward any questions that any of us have regarding canonical matters. In regards to the DSSP renewal in particular, we haven't asked.

If I had emailed a canonist, but never received a response, I would have said that. I contacted the St. Joseph Foundation, but nobody responded to the email they sent out regarding my request for emerging charism assistance. Another canonist known to be a Traditionalist didn't respond, either. A religious on Phatmass mentioned that emerging charisms begin as lay associations, so I googled that and found a canon law pdf on lay associations.

Holes? Many, and some are being filled, but at God's pace. When the inquiries come, I deal with the project in question. Otherwise, I concentrate on the ones that are growing.

I never meant to misrepresent the Cloisterite project. I very honestly did not know she had stopped working with us because of the legalese she used. I have never worked with an attorney--outside of real estate transactions--and hopefully never will require such services. The IRL highly recommends that founders/promoters get the canonist's exact commitment in writing, but that was after our incident.

The inquirers will ask if there has been any action on the particular project. If not, I will keep their email in a folder for future updates. Those who are with us have recognized the proposal as their home, and are working on building it.

Blessings,
Cloisters