Ten Commandments

dragon · #1 Oct 29, '09, 10:29 am

I would pose a question. The Ten Commandments are listed in the Bible in at least 2 different places. My question is why do Catholics list the Commandments differently than what is in the Bible??

PeterK · #2 Oct 29, '09, 11:01 am

dragon,
Check out this link on COL.

The True Ten Commandments
A Catholic Apologia for their Content and Arrangement
By Fr. Michael Wensing

It's a start anyway.

Peter K

ejb21 · #3 Oct 29, '09, 11:10 am

Hi dragon

#2066 of the CCC states : the division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism folloes the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confessions. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.

Hope this helps.

MonFrere · #4 Oct 29, '09, 11:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejb21

Hi dragon

#2066 of the CCC states : the division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism folloes the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confessions. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.

Hope this helps.

I will also note that the Catechism has commentary on EVERY PHRASE of the commandments - just to demonstrate that the Catholic Church is not trying to ignore the OT view of idols. I think the Church and her theology of the ramifications of the Incarnation is STRENGTHENED by emphasizing the OT prohibition of idols in it allowance of icons as reminders of those who lived holy lives - in the case of the Blessed Virgin, an immaculate life - and in the case of Jesus, a divine life. In other words - God becoming man MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE in the way we understand the world and the life had tremendous ramifications. Too often Protestant traditions - with their extremely literal way of viewing things get trapped into a literalism that becomes a brick wall as to FULLY understand the Incarnation and the salvation and new creation that Jesus Christ brought to mankind.

MonFrere

dragon · #5 Oct 29, '09, 11:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterK

dragon,
Check out this link on COL.

The True Ten Commandments
A Catholic Apologia for their Content and Arrangement
By Fr. Michael Wensing

It's a start anyway.

Peter K

Thanks Peter,

You have to have a starting point in a religion. According to the church it starts with the Bible. The Catholic Church broke off/grow out of the Jewish religion. The Jews had a Bible. Within in it contained the Ten Commandments. These can not change, these are the TRUE words of God. So if one changes them they are not the words of God and have no value.

Please do not send me to words of someone that is just adding their views of what God said or his intentions. They hold no more weight than any other words that were not God's. Tradition holds no value if they are based on false assumptions.

Dragon

dragon · #6 Oct 29, '09, 11:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonFrere

I will also note that the Catechism has commentary on EVERY PHRASE of the commandments - just to demonstrate that the Catholic Church is not trying to ignore the OT view of idols. I think the Church and her theology of the ramifications of the Incarnation is STRENGTHENED by emphasizing the OT prohibition of idols in it allowance of icons as reminders of those who lived holy lives - in the case of the Blessed Virgin, an immaculate life - and in the case of Jesus, a divine life. In other words - God becoming man MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE in the way we understand the world and the life had tremendous ramifications. Too often Protestant traditions - with their extremely literal way of viewing things get trapped into a literalism that becomes a brick wall as to FULLY understand the Incarnation and the salvation and new creation that Jesus Christ brought to mankind.

MonFrere

Does not the Ten Commandments state that one will have no idols?? Yet you pray to these idols. Sounds to me something in your religion has gone amiss.

Dragon

dragon · #7 Oct 29, '09, 11:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejb21

Hi dragon

#2066 of the CCC states : the division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism folloes the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confessions. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.

Hope this helps.

How can one even think about changing God's words around?? They were set down as laws. Can one just on a whim change laws?? You state in the quote that over the course of time they have changed more than once. Am I then to assume that God's words change or did he not really know what he was saying?? Show me in the Bible where it says man can change God's words.

Dragon

crazzeto · #8 Oct 29, '09, 11:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon

Thanks Peter,

You have to have a starting point in a religion. According to the church it starts with the Bible. The Catholic Church broke off/grow out of the Jewish religion. The Jews had a Bible. Within in it contained the Ten Commandments. These can not change, these are the TRUE words of God. So if one changes them they are not the words of God and have no value.

Please do not send me to words of someone that is just adding their views of what God said or his intentions. They hold no more weight than any other words that were not God's. Tradition holds no value if they are based on false assumptions.

Dragon

I think the point is that we didn't change the word of God at all, I think this is what you seem to have missed in the webpage:

Quote:

Much ink has been spilled regarding the early verses of the Decalogue about monotheism and images. The command of monotheism produces little disagreement. But is there a separate commandment regarding images, or are the verses regarding images meant as an example of the practice of monotheism and therefore intimately part of the first commandment? Again our answer depends on which text we choose, Exodus or Deuteronomy, for there are syntax differences. Exodus 20:3 ("You shall have no other gods before me") is a closed sentence and could be a complete commandment.

In Deuteronomy 5:7, the Hebrew construction is such that the wording is only the first part of what follows in the commandment, that no idol representing the deity be carved nor placed before the Lord God nor any such carved image be worshiped. In fact, we read verses 6–10 continuously, as one unit, before coming up for air.

In ancient Israel, the Lord God (Yahweh) was to receive exclusive worship (in a world full of the gods of other nations) and was not to be represented in images like other nations did for their deities. In fact, if one were ever to speak of an image of God, one could refer to how later rabbis said that God had already made such an image in mankind: "God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them" (Gen. 1:27).

Thus the syntax of Exodus 20 can look like two commandments: prohibition of polytheism and prohibition of making carved images. But the syntax of Deuteronomy 5:7–11 shows one commandment, prohibition of idolatry (especially involving carved images that represent other gods or Yahweh). So Catholics are justified after Augustine (following Deuteronomy) in seeing a single commandment in the opening verses of the Decalogue. This, of course, affects the whole counting of the commandments up through the tenth commandment.

St. Agustine, one of the early church fathers who knew directly the Apostolic faith arranged the 10 commandments out of Deuteronomy. Because of this, the ordering and some commandments end up being different than they are if you form your commandments from Exodus. The word of God wasn't changed, the difference is that the OT presents 2 different sets of commandments (both written by Moses). The Church fathers understood the later recording to be more reflective of God's true commandments.

ejb21 · #9 Oct 29, '09, 11:52 am

ok dragon, I should have known better.

I thought you were asking a question, but what you really want is an argument.

Show me in the bible where it says Luther can change the words of St. Paul.

MonFrere · #10 Oct 29, '09, 11:54 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon

Show me in the Bible where it says man can change God's words. Dragon

Show me, in the Bible the NT Church had that ....

a) had the authority to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday
b) the authority to change the rite of circumcision to the rite of baptism
c) the authority to abrogate one word of Old Covenant Law
d) the authority to add to scripture (the New Testament).

This was all done by the authority that Jesus invested in His Church. The same authority took a differing view concerning icons. The reason was THE INCARNATION. I don't have time to explain now, maybe later, or one of my Catholic colleagues can do that for me.

Best,
MonFrere

**Joe 5859** · #11 Oct 29, '09, 11:57 am

Did you actually want your question answered or have you merely come to prosyletize those who attempt to help you?

You have come to a Catholic website and posted a question. Do not then be surprised to hear answers from a Catholic perspective.

Here is another article that is helpful if you are honestly seeking an answer to your question:

The Division of the Ten Commandments

The Catholic Church has not "abandoned" or "eliminated" any Commandment. They simply divide it up differently. The "false idols" Commandment is a corollary of the First Commandment. And coveting a neighbor's property is separated into a different Commandment from coveting his wife (which makes sense as someone's wife is in a bit of a different category than a piece of property, don't you think?)

dragon · #12 Oct 29, '09, 12:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejb21

ok dragon, I should have known better.

I thought you were asking a question, but what you really want is an argument.

Show me in the bible where it says Luther can change the words of St. Paul.

Dear ejb21,

You are probably correct in part. I do question your church. I do not question your basic beliefs. To me religion is different than Church. I do feel that your church has strayed from the true religion. I can do this by using my mind that is according to you a God given gift. I do feel that your church is full of idols and that separates you from a true loving relationship with god. I do not promote any religion over another. How one believes in their god is very personal. This is off topic.

St. Paul was not a god. You might say that he spoke with the authority of god. And you would say the same thing about your Pope.

geometer · #13 Oct 29, '09, 12:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe 5859

The Catholic Church has not "abandoned" or "eliminated" any Commandment. They simply divide it up differently.

The first commandment of the decalogue is Exodus 20:1-2. The catholic church rejects these.

crazzeto · #14 Oct 29, '09, 12:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by geometer

The first commandment of the decalogue is Exodus 20:1-2. The catholic church rejects these.

St. Augustine, the Early Christians and the Church today feel that when moses Pened the commandments a second time, that it must have been because he felt there was need to pen something closer to what God was commanding. It's not a question of rejecting commandments, it's a question of looking at what (appear) to be conflicting sets of commandments, and making sense of them.

crazzeto · #15 Oct 29, '09, 12:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon

Dear ejb21,

You are probably correct in part. I do question your church. I do not question your basic beliefs. To me religion is different than Church. I do feel that your church has strayed from the true religion. I can do this by using my mind that is according to you a God given gift. I do feel that your church is full of idols and that separates you from a true loving relationship with god. I do not promote any religion over another. How one believes in their god is very personal. This is off topic.

St. Paul was not a god. You might say that he spoke with the authority of god. And you would say the same thing about your Pope.

So you reject

Quote:

16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice,

Most specifically regarding your assertion that "we have strayed...". The "catholic ten commandments" are thee ten commandments that have been taught since the days of the Early Church. We most certainly haven't altered our teaching since St. Augustain. "Your" ten commandments, on the other hand, were a new innovation as of the 1600's. I feel pretty confident in arguing that the Catholic Church in fact, has not strayed at all from the teachings of the Early Chruch.