Is this "Unmentionable" the reason most people don't make it to Heaven? - Page 2

vandal02 · #16 Nov 3, '09, 4:26 am

Whoa... chill out TedDC... You don't have to leave the church because of the people managing it. There may be physical aspects of the church that you don't like (you don't like the priests, the people attending masses, the leaking roof). But that doesn't mean you have to forget about the core of this church. The spiritual aspect of it, the fact that it is about our connection with God.

You might say that you could communicate and have a relationship with God while not being part of this "church". Let's say that's possible. If you don't like the church as it is... why would you leave it? From your statements you obviously love God, so wouldn't it be better if you stay and try to make the Church better? For God? I'm not asking you to start a revolution, I'm just saying that perhaps you could stay behind and help all of us make this church better.

-Edit-

Sorry, my comprehension was kinda slow.... i think what you meant was that you don't like the idea of priests or any other mortal being an intermediary between you and God.

About that, priests do not hinder your relationship with God. They are there as guides to us. If you want to speak to God directly... try praying... not just memorized prayer, pray as if you are having a conversation with God.

vandal02 · #17 Nov 3, '09, 4:40 am

About the topic...

1. I don't think that we are in the position to say that few people go to heaven. Just try to be good and let God sort us out when we die.

2. We can't say which sin hurts the most... the nature of sin is much more complicated than that. Sometimes you cannot separate one sin from the other. Take sloth for example. It may seem very minor since you can't hurt anyone by just lying around. If you keep on being lazy, you might be tempted to look at pornography (lust). After that you might crave for more and more porn, and become frustrated when you don't get your fix (anger)... and the list goes on.
(Just remember Yoda... fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate... sin is like that)

3. Don't count the people going to hell, it's not our business. As humans, our job is to do everything to be good, pray for other people, and help other people. God will take care of the rest.

distracted · #18 Nov 3, '09, 4:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by carinapir

I agree that masturbation is not right, but I also don't believe that God is going to just toss all the masturbators in Hell. It's just not that simple. You are more than just your sexual sins and He will see everything.

This question strikes me as arrogant. You really don't need to concern yourself with how many people will make it to Heaven.

if i don't then i don't care and that is a sin..

i don't want anyone to go to Hell... ever read Sister Faustina's vision of Hell from her diary? you can google it...

Jesus said that many people do not make it.. that few find that narrow road to Heavne.

distracted · #19 Nov 3, '09, 4:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by m134e5

We know that masturbation (really, saying the word isn't a big deal- no need to be bashful about it) is grave matter, and if done with full knowledge and consent of the will, it is a mortal sin. We don't know how often it is done with full knowledge and consent of the will though. I think more people will make it than we realize- God is just, and does not punish for unintentional ignorance.

We are so uptight about sexual sins in this country it's crazy. Yes, they are mortal sins, we shouldn't do them, and we should go to confession before receiving communion if we do- but sexual sins aren't as big as some of the others- they just happen to make people in this country blush more than some of the others.

what the heck are you talking about??? hung up on sex??? as in puritanical???? i don't even watch TV but the little bits and pieces i have seen at others' houses... YIKES... All it is SEX SEX and more SEX...

and as to that thing about God being merciful... That kinda has nothing to do with it. God is merciful in that he leads us out of sin IF we let him... it is all up to us whether we will listne or not... that has to do with us humans, not God.. and it is SIN that leads one to Hell. . it is NOT God... so i wish people would quit acting like it is God who "throws" people into Hell... it is SIN that does that and our choice to do sin.. God sends NO one to Hell...

Sin is powerful. Jesus conquered sin and the only way we can conquer it is through Jesus Christ... this sin like all sin separates us from Christ... Do you want to die separated from the only "thing" that can save you???

If you don't know how separated from God you are, pray a rosary or spend a lot of time in the Real Presence...

i haven't evfen commited this sin in years and yet the other venial sins i commit (or just the condition of my soul) is such that i often feel i have separated myself from Jesus... and feel it as soon as i pray the rosary... or spend time in the RP..

i can see why Jesus said that few find the narrow way to heaven... most are not IN Christ.. These are some of the best ways to be IN Him... but do many do them regularly???

carinapir · #20 Nov 3, '09, 4:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by distracted

if i don't then i don't care and that is a sin.

I disagree. The opposite of stopping the obsession over the precise reason why "so few" will make it to Heaven is not not caring. If anything, the opposite is to help each person that you see needing help in the way that they need to be helped. If you start a crusade against masturbation, we mortals will find some other way to damn ourselves. It's about the whole person and everyone is different.

Karmartia · #21 Nov 3, '09, 4:53 pm

I doubt there is one of us who has never masturbated (or possibly does not masturbate). I doubt there is one Catholic who has masturbated and not confessed it before recieving Communion. If masturbation, in and of itself, was a mortal sin then no one would escape damnation. Why we do it is of infinitely greater importance than that we do it. Someone who sits in front of his computer screen looking at some kind of freaky internet porn site for the sole purpose of self-gratification (with no regard as to the degradation of the performers) might be held to a different standard than a woman who has long missed her husband's touch, or a teenage boy with raging hormones. We are, after all, borne in mortal bodies complete with animal desires that are very, very strong. I trust in God's mercy and His reasonableness in this matter. I know my view differs from the Church on this, but I just can't imagine Jesus cares all that much about it, considering all the things we do which are so much more self-destructive.

KingTheoden · #22 Nov 3, '09, 5:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedDC

Why the obsession with this topic? It's harmless; for some of us who are unattractive to the opposite sex, it's the only way we'll ever experience a little of the joy which God gives to married people. Let it go. There are lots of things we do which actually hurt other people. Those are the real offenses against God that we should be worried about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedDC

And that's the reason I'll probably be leaving the Church. I've lived too long, seen too much, to trust any man as an intermediary between me and God.

I sincerely wish that I could have the kind of faith in the Church that you and others display. It would make life a lot easier. But I simply can't.

Please don't leave the Church because of this (or for that matter, any) challenge.

Remember that Jesus commissioned men to spread the Gospel message and He appointed Peter to server as the rock. The challenge is to avoid despair when we think we have hit a wall in life or with a teaching.

StillWondering · #23 Nov 3, '09, 5:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedDC

And that's the reason I'll probably be leaving the Church. I've lived too long, seen too much, to trust any man as an intermediary between me and God.

I sincerely wish that I could have the kind of faith in the Church that you and others display. It would make life a lot easier. But I simply can't.

I'm thinking if we take away any teachers between us and God, we are left to be our own teachers. From what I can tell, so many brilliant people would make better teachers then myself to myself to learn about God's teaching. I pray to God all the time to light my way. Well, priests then tell me when I'm confused or have the wrong assumptions, and then I notice that God gave me these priests to teach me.

distracted · #24 Nov 3, '09, 5:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by carinapir

I disagree. The opposite of stopping the obsession over the precise reason why "so few" will make it to Heaven is not not caring. If anything, the opposite is to help each person that you see needing help in the way that they need to be helped. If you start a crusade against masturbation, we mortals will find some other way to damn ourselves. It's about the whole person and everyone is different.

you sound like you know my motives but you do not..

again, i don't want people going to Hell..

maybe you should read St Faustina's Diary 741..

Hell is forever.. so i have heard... so the bible says..

therefore we must help peple to stop doing what gets them there.

distracted · #25 Nov 3, '09, 5:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmartia

I doubt there is one of us who has never masturbated (or possibly does not masturbate). I doubt there is one Catholic who has masturbated and not confessed it before recieving Communion. If masturbation, in and of itself, was a mortal sin then no one would escape damnation. Why we do it is of infinitely greater importance than that we do it.

this is SO not true... This sin like all sin separates one from Christ.. Why we do it is not what separates us from him.. why is irrelevent for the most part, although there are degrees of culpability depending on vaiorus factors...

again the analogy of the boys whose father told them not to get dirty... One accidentally falls into a muddy ditch... One is pushed in by a friend... One deliberately jumps in, defying his father out-right... Which one needs a bath???

Karmartia · #26 Nov 3, '09, 5:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by distracted

this is SO not true... This sin like all sin separates one from Christ.. Why we do it is not what separates us from him.. why is irrelevent for the most part, although there are degrees of culpability depending on vaiorus factors...

again the analogy of the boys whose father told them not to get dirty... One accidentally falls into a muddy ditch... One is pushed in by a friend... One deliberately jumps in, defying his father out-right... Which one needs a bath???

Obviously they all need to be cleaned on the outside but only one needs to be cleaned on the inside.

distracted · #27 Nov 3, '09, 5:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmartia

Obviously they all need to be cleaned on the outside but only one needs to be cleaned on the inside.

my point is that it is SIN that destroys and sends people to Hell... that and their unwilingness to let it go or do whatever is needed..

the analogy need not be more complicated than it is... i was speaking of being dirty with sin... Sin defiles the entire human being, body, mind and soul... there is no "inside " or outside to be considered, to speak of..

it doesn't matter what the motive is... except that if you, say, accidentally self-gratify while you are sleeping, that is far less ... consequence-ridden than doing it deliberately. But one time i had some kind of erotic dream and ... when i woke up i felt that something had happened to my body while asleep and i STILL...even though it was totally NOT my doing.. felt that something had changed negatively with my relationship with Christ... I said massive prayers and (can't recall what else i did... long time ago..) but anyhow... i felt that something was NOT good, i had lost grace...

and i do NOT attribute htis to scrupulosity... I attribute it the Holy Spirit telling me that i needed to purify myself through prayer and fasting and whatever... to get back the graces i had lost...
sin defiles... motive or culpability nothwithstanding..

Karmartia · #28 Nov 3, '09, 5:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by distracted

my point is that it is [i][b][color="DarkGreen"][size="4"]

it doesn't matter what the motive is... except that if you, say, accidentally self-gratify while you are sleeping, that is far less ... consequence-ridden than doing it deliberately. But one time i had some kind of erotic dream and ... when i woke up i felt that something had happened to my body while asleep and i STILL...even though it was totally NOT my doing.. felt that something had changed negatively with my relationship with Christ... I said massive prayers and (can't recall what else i did... long time ago..) but anyhow... i felt that something was NOT good, i had lost grace...

and i do NOT attribute htis to scrupulosity... I attribute it the Holy Spirit telling me that i needed to purify myself through prayer and fasting and whatever... to get back the graces i had lost...
sin defiles... motive or culpability nothwithstanding..

You seem to be arguing my point to a certain extent. Either the circumstances matter or they do not. Did you confess your wet-dream to a priest? I doubt it, or don't you recall? If you believe that masturbation is a mortal sin then by all means refrain from it, if you can. I consider it a mortal sin too, depending on the circumstances. Otherwise it is a venial sin. Then again, I consider smoking cigarettes a mortal sin, but the Church does not last time I checked. Smoking harms the physical body and is dangerous to the health of others. Masturbation not so much.

Secret Square · #29 Nov 3, '09, 5:52 pm

A few important points:

1. Any statements on the part of saints or visionaries regarding how many people are in hell or why they are there fall into the category of private revelation. Catholics are free to believe approved private revelations (e.g. Fatima, Divine Mercy) if they wish, but are not OBLIGATED to believe them as a matter of faith or morals.

2. The Catholic Church does proclaim certain people (saints and blesseds) to be in heaven, but never has and never will officially proclaim that any particular person or group of people is in hell.

3. There's a big difference between someone who keeps trying to get up after they fall, and someone who just wallows in the dirt and doesn't even bother getting up. As long as you repent after every fall, confess your sin and sincerely try to avoid doing it again (even if you can't 100 percent guarantee you won't do it again), God forgives you.

4. In the case of persistent habitual sin like masturbation, bad temper, excessive drinking, etc. it may seem like constantly confessing the same sin is a waste of time, but the grace of the sacrament will eventually have an effect, kind of like the constant dripping of water on solid rock can eventually produce a cave or canyon. Remember what Christ said in the parable of the Unjust Judge -- persistence pays off.

5. While the sins of the flesh are bad and should be taken seriously, they are not necessarily the worst sins of all. Sins of malice -- pride, envy, holding grudges, treating others with contempt or cruelty -- are objectively worse than sins committed out of weakness; however, they aren't always as easy to quantify. If you read Dante's Inferno, you may notice that persons damned due to sins of the flesh (lust, gluttony, sloth) are punished in the higher (i.e. less severe) circles of hell than those who committed sins of deliberate fraud, violence, or treachery. Likewise, his Purgatorio puts the repentant souls who are doing penance for sins like pride and envy at the bottom of the Mount of Purgatory and those doing penance for gluttony and lust at the top, at the last stop before they prepare to enter heaven.

6. The only person whose eternal salvation you can control is yourself. Yes, we do have an obligation to admonish sinners and instruct the ignorant, but ultimately, what they do with that information is up to them. Instead of worrying or speculating about who may be going to hell or how many people may end up there, concentrate on doing all YOU can to avoid going there.

StillWondering · #30 Nov 4, '09, 11:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmartia

You seem to be arguing my point to a certain extent. Either the circumstances matter or they do not. Did you confess your wet-dream to a priest? I doubt it, or don't you recall? If you believe that masturbation is a mortal sin then by all means refrain from it, if you can. I consider it a mortal sin too, depending on the circumstances. Otherwise it is a venial sin. Then again, I consider smoking cigarettes a mortal sin, but the Church does not last time I checked. Smoking harms the physical body and is dangerous to the health of others. Masturbation not so much.

As strange as it sounds, I would say that Masturbation harms the body more than smoking. I know it sounds weird, but here me out. I agree with the other points you made above.

Masturbation does not leave holes in body like smoking leaves holes. But masturbation changes your hormonal and neurological signals. You brain in response to your actions on your body, changes by the production of neurotransmitters telling your system what is yes and what is no. What is pleasant and what should be avoided.

This is potentially harmful but possibly tolerable if they only do that, but neurotransmitters are a lot more complicated. Each type has multiple effects including diet, perception, mental acuity, moral judgment, and the list goes on. Since these changes range from minor to irreversible (for practical purposes) the damage can be huge depending on the individual. In general though, if all aspects of the human body is taken into account I would say that Masturbation does more damage. The evidence would be your actions towards those around you and the actions of society as a whole. We are embodied spirits so our actions are not will alone (in general, some saints are quite an exception

).

Know also that there are medical instances of children and young adults who do not masturbate but under the affect of Ritalin or Foccasil (ADD medications) they cannot control themselves. The effect would be an insurmountable physical and hormonal need for pornography and masturbation. (BTW, in these cases, these children and adults should try another medication, but some doctors do not see this as a harmful effect and so do not say anything =/)