Sad to Understand Evangelicals

[dad_o_six]

Originally Posted by RedRedemption

I am not a Catholic but I have been seeking to have a deeper, clearer understanding of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. I have several Catholic co-workers that I went to for answers. I presented them with lines 1365-1367 of the Catechism and they openly admitted that they didn't have a clue how to answer my questions. The part that was disheartening is that it didn't bother them one bit. When I listen to EWTN radio, I hear the hosts and guests speak of the importance of understanding why the church does what it does, but for some reason the mentality of many cradle Catholics in my circle of family and friends is that only the priests need to have a deep understanding of the faith and that their understanding sort of covers over the lay peoples' lacking. Many Protestants don't know a lot about their faith either but it seems that many protestant churches emphasize all church members diligently studying the Bible which develops more understanding of their faith. I think little children can understand a lot more about man's sinful nature and our need for a savior than what we often give them credit.

This is probably beyond the original scope of the thread, but I feel a need to respond. The Catholic Church is the only religion in the history of the world that clearly affirms both humanity/the body and spirituality. My understanding is that the Eucharist is the intersection of both material Being and spiritual Being. Compare this to Hinduism or Buddhism, in which material being is merely suffering and illusion. Only Jesus was fully human and fully divine, affirming the importance of both my mortal life and my immortal soul, as well as yours and every human being's. Protestantism, as it has taken away the material sacraments and ecclesiastical authority, is evolving toward something like Hinduism, but more akin to vague, 12-step inspired, empty spirituality. This is especially true of the mainline Protestant churches and maybe why I can sometimes identify with Evangelicals more that cradle Catholics who are often indistinguishable from mainline Protestants in their actual beliefs.

One of the things that is sorely lacking from Cathechesis, especially for teens, is a clear distinction of what it means to be Catholic versus Protestant. Are we that afraid to offend? I submit we cannot define who we are without giving a serious response to who we are not. On this measure, the Evangelicals are light years ahead of the Catholic church in America.

[Cat]

I would like to respond to those who in this thread who have advised former Protestants to "get involved" with catechesis.

I've been Catholic now for five years, after 47 years of enthusiastic and excessive involvement in the evangelical Protestant church. I was involved primarily in music and teaching ministries in the Protestant churches that I was involved with.

However, I have struggled with teaching involvement in the Catholic Church. It seems like it should be a natural fit, doesn't it? Well, it isn't. Those of us who came from Protestant fellowships know that something is different about us. Yes, we are fully Catholic, but we have an entire baggage car of knowledge and background to deal with. We are not cradle Catholics and we don't understand what it means to be cradle Catholic.

For example, I still struggle with the concept of liturgical abuse. I understand intellectually why it's important to preserve the Liturgy of the Mass. But I shake my head over the anal-retentiveness of many of the people on this forum--at least, that's how it appears to me.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I personally don't think it is wise to put most evangelicals in positions in the Catholic Church where they are teaching children and teenagers. I think that some of our "baggage" will inevitably slop over into our teaching and this will bring about the changes in the Catholic Church that so many Catholics see and decry.

A while back, I did a post where I described how the music in the Mass is changing and how I believe that much of that change is due to Protestants becoming Catholic and bringing with us our vibrant, lively, emotional music--yes, I love it and frankly, I think a lot of what passes for reverent in Masses now is merely dull and lifeless compared to some of the great gospel hymns that I grew up on .

You see? There it is again!

The example that I intended to give was the "alcohol" example. I was raised in a family and in a church that believed that consumption of any and all alcohol is wrong and that Christians should never drink alcohol. I still agree with this and I have argued on this forum for the complete abstinence of Christians from alcohol.

Do you honestly think I could tell a child or a teenager, with a straight face and clear eyes, that it's OK for Christians to drink alcohol? It will never happen.

Finally, I believe that for their own spiritual development, most evangelicals should be kept away from teaching in the Catholic Church. Over and over again, in the evangelical churches, we saw movie stars, musicians, and other famous people become Christians ("ask Jesus into their heart"), and be swept up into "Christian celebrity" by the evangelicals, who booked them to teach and preach and sing. B.J. Thomas is an example--he was our "poster boy" for a few years. Then he made the "mistake" of saying that it was OK for Christians to sing secular music--and hoo, boy, did he get attacked! He eventually faded out of the evangelical scene--I hope he's still a believer in Jesus, but I don't know. I think that everyone scared him away. He wasn't ready to take on the ministry of teaching.

I think a lot of evangelical Protestants would do well to simply "wait" and study and learn how to be Catholic before charging in to "fix up the lack of catechesis in the Catholic Church today, harumph harumph!"

If you think that the catechesis issue bothers Catholics, you should know what it does to evangelicals. It yanks our chain so badly that it causes us to doubt sometimes whether the Pope is a man or a mouse. We see so much wasted potential, so much that could be done. Honestly, more teaching went on in my evangelical churches in ONE YEAR than has happened in five years in the entire U.S.A. Catholic Church! It drives evangelicals totally nuts to see the sheer sitting around and doing nothing that we see in the Catholic Church. We want to start yelling, "Put that Rosary away and do some studying, people!"

Do you understand what I'm saying? I've tried to write this post to illustrate why you WOULDN'T want me teaching your Catholic children or teenagers, and why you would probably be hesitant to invite me to speak at your grown-up class! It's just not a wise plan.

Certainly, there are exceptions. God has called some former evangelicals to be wonderful teachers in the Catholic Church. But I believe these people are the exception rather than the rule.

[JustaServant]

Originally Posted by Cat

I would like to respond to those who in this thread who have advised former Protestants to "get involved" with catechesis.

I've been Catholic now for five years, after 47 years of enthusiastic and excessive involvement in the evangelical Protestant church. I was involved primarily in music and teaching ministries in the Protestant churches that I was involved with.

However, I have struggled with teaching involvement in the Catholic Church. It seems like it should be a natural fit, doesn't it? Well, it isn't. Those of us who came from Protestant fellowships know that something is different about us. Yes, we are fully Catholic, but we have an entire baggage car of knowledge and background to deal with. We are not cradle Catholics and we don't understand what it means to be cradle Catholic.

For example, I still struggle with the concept of liturgical abuse. I understand intellectually why it's important to preserve the Liturgy of the Mass. But I shake my head over the anal-retentiveness of many of the people on this forum--at least, that's how it appears to me.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I personally don't think it is wise to put most evangelicals in positions in the Catholic Church where they are teaching children and teenagers. I think that some of our "baggage" will inevitably slop over into our teaching and this will bring about the changes in the Catholic Church that so many Catholics see and decry.

A while back, I did a post where I described how the music in the Mass is changing and how I believe that much of that change is due to Protestants becoming Catholic and bringing with us our vibrant, lively, emotional music--yes, I love it and frankly, I think a lot of what passes for reverent in Masses now is merely dull and lifeless compared to some of the great gospel hymns that I grew up on .

You see? There it is again!

The example that I intended to give was the "alcohol" example. I was raised in a family and in a church that believed that consumption of any and all alcohol is wrong and that Christians should never drink alcohol. I still agree with this and I have argued on this forum for the complete abstinence of Christians from alcohol.

Do you honestly think I could tell a child or a teenager, with a straight face and clear eyes, that it's OK for Christians to drink alcohol? It will never happen.

Finally, I believe that for their own spiritual development, most evangelicals should be kept away from teaching in the Catholic Church. Over and over again, in the evangelical churches, we saw movie stars, musicians, and other famous people become Christians ("ask Jesus into their heart"), and be swept up into "Christian celebrity" by the evangelicals, who booked them to teach and preach and sing. B.J. Thomas is an example--he was our "poster boy" for a few years. Then he made the "mistake" of saying that it was OK for Christians to sing secular music--and hoo, boy, did he get attacked! He eventually faded out of the evangelical scene--I hope he's still a believer in Jesus, but I don't know. I think that everyone scared him away. He wasn't ready to take on the ministry of teaching.

I think a lot of evangelical Protestants would do well to simply "wait" and study and learn how to be Catholic before charging in to "fix up the lack of catechesis in the Catholic Church today, harumph harumph!"

If you think that the catechesis issue bothers Catholics, you should know what it does to evangelicals. It yanks our chain so badly that it causes us to doubt sometimes whether the Pope is a man or a mouse. We see so much wasted potential, so much that could be done. Honestly, more teaching went on in my evangelical churches in ONE YEAR than has happened in five years in the entire U.S.A. Catholic Church! It drives evangelicals totally nuts to see the sheer sitting around and doing nothing that we see in the Catholic Church. We want to start yelling, "Put that Rosary away and do some studying, people!"

Do you understand what I'm saying? I've tried to write this post to illustrate why you WOULDN'T want me teaching your Catholic children or teenagers, and why you would probably be hesitant to invite me to speak at your grown-up class! It's just not a wise plan.

Certainly, there are exceptions. God has called some former evangelicals to be wonderful teachers in the Catholic Church. But I believe these people are the exception rather than the rule.

I understand where you are coming from, but I thnk much of what you are saying is still coming from an evangelical mindset.
The Protestant revolt, which includes evangelicals, based it's philosophy on 'knowledge', which is directly a result of the Enlightenment. Historically, being a Catholic Christian is more than that. If it was all based on 'knowledge' the Church would have the divisions Protestantism has.
One can know very little about the deep things of theology, and yet be a devout Catholic. How? Those spiritual exercises like those Rosaries evangelicals think should be 'put away'. Just like bodily exercise makes your body healthier, spiritual exercise makes your spirit healthier. That might INCLUDE knowledge, but is NOT LIMITED to knowledge.
The saints of the Middle Ages did not have access to Catholic Answers, they nevertheless were saints.

[Mark77]

Originally Posted by dad_o_six

The other day, I heard two Evangelicals talking about their book, "Spagetti for the Soul," on Christian radio. They didn't make a big deal of it, but obviously they were both raised Catholic and they both felt that the Church did not convey to them a living and breathing faith. They were, instead, drawn to an Evangelical or non-denominational form of Bible-Christianity.

Here's my dilemma: Though I believe that the Catholic Church is the one true faith, I also perceive regularly that the practice of the faith, especially since moving to the Northeast, is trivialized and has lost its meaning and impact. In fact, though I am repelled by the inevitable anti-Catholic jabs, I often find myself identifying more with Christian Evangelicals than with cradle Catholics.

This is very sad to me. I think the reason is that catechesis is sorely lacking. The other day, my kindergartener came home with a coloring from "Faith Formation" (apparently, CCD was no longer a good enough term). Her exercise contained the phrases comment: "Jesus says, 'People who help others are important." In the center, the handout said, "I am important. I can help." I understand that this curriculum was designed for kindergarteners, but that does not excuse a gross distortion of the Scriptures. This approved Catholic curriculum was guilty of two things the Evangelicals accuse us Catholics of doing. 1. This promotes a good works mentality. 2. It puts words into God's mouth. My wife and I have started having CCD after CCD. We use what they learned as a building block into a more accurate discussion of the Christian faith. Next year, we will be homeschooling.

So, when I listen to these nice Evangelical ladies discussing Christianity I can not only see why they gave up Catholicism, but also why they unknowingly bring along so much of it in what they pass along--from St. Francis of Assisi to their family recipes. Perhaps they are subconsciously Catholic, they just were so poorly instructed that they cannot recognize it.

"Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mt 25:32-46)

Sounds like Jesus said that works, not faith, will determine who is a goat and who is a sheep!

"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mt 7:21)

The problem with our Protestant brothers and sisters is they claim to be 'Sola Scriptura', but they only use selected verses from 'Scriptura' as they see fit, often taking these verses out of context to try to prove a point like "faith alone."

Perhaps we all need more Faith Formation!, Read Sacred Scripture and the Catechism!


Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

[poetryforjesus]

Originally Posted by Cat

I would like to respond to those who in this thread who have advised former Protestants to "get involved" with catechesis.

I've been Catholic now for five years, after 47 years of enthusiastic and excessive involvement in the evangelical Protestant church. I was involved primarily in music and teaching ministries in the Protestant churches that I was involved with.

However, I have struggled with teaching involvement in the Catholic Church. It seems like it should be a natural fit, doesn't it? Well, it isn't. Those of us who came from Protestant fellowships know that something is different about us. Yes, we are fully Catholic, but we have an entire baggage car of knowledge and background to deal with. We are not cradle Catholics and we don't understand what it means to be cradle Catholic.

For example, I still struggle with the concept of liturgical abuse. I understand intellectually why it's important to preserve the Liturgy of the Mass. But I shake my head over the anal-retentiveness of many of the people on this forum--at least, that's how it appears to me.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I personally don't think it is wise to put most evangelicals in positions in the Catholic Church where they are teaching children and teenagers. I think that some of our "baggage" will inevitably slop over into our teaching and this will bring about the changes in the Catholic Church that so many Catholics see and decry.

A while back, I did a post where I described how the music in the Mass is changing and how I believe that much of that change is due to Protestants becoming Catholic and bringing with us our vibrant, lively, emotional music--yes, I love it and frankly, I think a lot of what passes for reverent in Masses now is merely dull and lifeless compared to some of the great gospel hymns that I grew up on .

You see? There it is again!

The example that I intended to give was the "alcohol" example. I was raised in a family and in a church that believed that consumption of any and all alcohol is wrong and that Christians should never drink alcohol. I still agree with this and I have argued on this forum for the complete abstinence of Christians from alcohol.

Do you honestly think I could tell a child or a teenager, with a straight face and clear eyes, that it's OK for Christians to drink alcohol? It will never happen.

Finally, I believe that for their own spiritual development, most evangelicals should be kept away from teaching in the Catholic Church. Over and over again, in the evangelical churches, we saw movie stars, musicians, and other famous people become Christians ("ask Jesus into their heart"), and be swept up into "Christian celebrity" by the evangelicals, who booked them to teach and preach and sing. B.J. Thomas is an example--he was our "poster boy" for a few years. Then he made the "mistake" of saying that it was OK for Christians to sing secular music--and hoo, boy, did he get attacked! He eventually faded out of the evangelical scene--I hope he's still a believer in Jesus, but I don't know. I think that everyone scared him away. He wasn't ready to take on the ministry of teaching.

I think a lot of evangelical Protestants would do well to simply "wait" and study and learn how to be Catholic before charging in to "fix up the lack of catechesis in the Catholic Church today, harumph harumph!"

If you think that the catechesis issue bothers Catholics, you should know what it does to evangelicals. It yanks our chain so badly that it causes us to doubt sometimes whether the Pope is a man or a mouse. We see so much wasted potential, so much that could be done. Honestly, more teaching went on in my evangelical churches in ONE YEAR than has happened in five years in the entire U.S.A. Catholic Church! It drives evangelicals totally nuts to see the sheer sitting around and doing nothing that we see in the Catholic Church. We want to start yelling, "Put that Rosary away and do some studying, people!"

Do you understand what I'm saying? I've tried to write this post to illustrate why you WOULDN'T want me teaching your Catholic children or teenagers, and why you would probably be hesitant to invite me to speak at your grown-up class! It's just not a wise plan.

Certainly, there are exceptions. God has called some former evangelicals to be wonderful teachers in the Catholic Church. But I believe these people are the exception rather than the rule.

I am a protestant convert still in RCIA. Our RCIA classes sometimes bug me with the teacher being somewhat liberal saying things like Jesus didn't know who he was. But in general, the teaching has been fairly good. It is definitely better and more substantial than what I got in my protestant churches.

Another thing is, catholics generally are more quiet than protestants. You won't find them saying "Amen" even if they really like what they are hearing. But I actually like this aspect about catholics because they use their time more for listening and digesting than empty talking. So I wouldn't say that a roomful of quiet catholics are just sitting there doing nothing.

And praying the Rosary. That, in my opinion, is better than all the protestant books and teaching put together. I don't care how educated and eloquant and seeming inspiring protestants are, a Rosary will do a lot more in changing people's interior lives.

[Cat]

Originally Posted by JustaServant

I understand where you are coming from, but I thnk much of what you are saying is still coming from an evangelical mindset.
The Protestant revolt, which includes evangelicals, based it's philosophy on 'knowledge', which is directly a result of the Enlightenment. Historically, being a Catholic Christian is more than that. If it was all based on 'knowledge' the Church would have the divisions Protestantism has.
One can know very little about the deep things of theology, and yet be a devout Catholic. How? Those spiritual exercises like those Rosaries evangelicals think should be 'put away'. Just like bodily exercise makes your body healthier, spiritual exercise makes your spirit healthier. That might INCLUDE knowledge, but is NOT LIMITED to knowledge.
The saints of the Middle Ages did not have access to Catholic Answers, they nevertheless were saints.

Boldface above--that's my POINT! I'm saying that as much as we would love to dive right in and fix everything, we evangelicals probably shouldn't be teaching in Catholic settings. Of course, it is up to the Holy Spirit to select teachers and gift those people, and if the Holy Spirit is leading someone into teaching, they should obey.

[dad_o_six]

Mark77: Jesus also said that we should not let our right hand know what the left is doing. He also told us that his followers not to seek out the honored seats at the temple. And in the Scripture to which my daughter's religious formation class--the curriculum is liturgy oriented--was referring said that disciples don't understand when they are asking when they want to sit at the right hand of the Lord. (Please forgive my paraphrases.) It seems to me that Jesus had two main points: Love God and love other people. The Protestant critique of works is wrong because they can sometimes neglect the latter. The cafeteria Catholic tends to neglect the former.

Cat: What is sorely lacking is instruction on dogma or doctrine. By turning to a liturgy-oriented church, both in homily and CCD, the Catholic church is becoming more like mainline Protestant churches. In my view, as Catholics we need stop being afraid of offending people and talk about who we are and who we are not. Obviously, there are some infallible doctrines that not everyone is up-to-speed on (such as birth-control), but as Catholics we are not necessarily required to understand everything in one moment of conversion.

I forget who: I like the Baltimore catechism. It provided content. What I don't like is warm fuzzies and vague generalities. I agree with Mark77, only I would say that we shouldn't let the Protestant back us into a corner of focusing too much on Scripture to the exclusion of doctrine.

[MonFrere]

This is a good thread. A lot of people from a lot of different perspectives are bringing up a lot of different point.

I'll add these different points.

FIRST - The older I get the more I "see" that the Holy Spirit working in people isn't very often "translated" by those people very accurately.
EXAMPLE: Cradle Catholic is moved to become more devoted to his faith. So he begins to read his bible. He notices that others don't share his new found enthusiasm. He concludes - the Catholic Church is dead. He find his evangelical friends are enthusiastic and they begin telling him everything that's wrong with the Catholic Church and BINGO - another Catholic leaves. WHY? Because the Holy Spirit did indeed move him but then - that enthusiasm set in motion a series of events that lead him out of the Church.

EXAMPLE: Cradle Catholic has a "spiritual" experience. She is just sure this experience is from God. Then everything after this in her life is also from God and depending upon her personality this can take all different paths. If the person is of a conservative nature - the church is going to hell in a hand basket and goes to one of the extremes of traditionalism. If the person is of a liberal nature they buy into the "social gospel" or become a lopsided "green Christian".

In both of these examples there may have indeed been a movement by the Holy Spirit. But WHAT FOLLOWS is what causes problems.

I think this is what St. Paul was dealing with in Corinth. I think my point here is that whenever we see a person being moved to become involved in his faith -- by all means help that person with solid spiritual advise so the movement of the Holy Spirit isn't immediately taken by the evil one. The Holy Spirit needs nurtured and directed and focused so it can produce GOOD FRUIT. It seems to me that leaving that person to his own devices leads to disaster in far too many times that I've seen in my lifetime.

The spiritually mature have GOT TO help those who are spiritually immature -- those who are under the first flush of movement of the Holy Spirit. And here is where the Catholic can really be of benefit to the evangelical if properly trained in the faith. All that enthusiasm they express is largely IMO spiritually immaturity parading around as spiritual maturity. And here is where Catholic spiritual and devotional life is absolutely essential to bring that spiritual maturity to the place where it bears GOOD FRUIT and not superficial fruit. The Catholic Church and her understanding of a growing spirituality is unlike ANYTHING in the Protestant world -- it REQUIRES on to quiet themselves, to discipline themselves and to listen to God who speaks in the still small voice of their heart and mind. Otherwise we become ADHD Christians.

The difference dramatically displayed is the difference between Fr. Frank Pavone and his superb work in fighting abortion and the "Christian" fellow who murdered that abortion doctor (forget his name) a few months ago. Most cases are not near as dramatic as this comparison -- but the pattern is definitely there for those who can see it.

(2 Tim 1:7) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

The spiritually mature are people of a SOUND MIND. Or, as Jesus said -- Peace be to you -- MY PEACE I give you.

MonFrere

[Church Militant]

I can understand your feelings Dad, but as one who spent over 30 years as an evangelical n-C, I can tell you that what they are talking about (and you too I guess) is not just a problem in the Catholic Church.

I was a Sunday school teacher and Bible study leader as well as a Deacon in an Assembly of God church, and even with all their emotionalism, their flash, and show, and music...they have the very same problem...and on about the same level that Catholics do.

I saw it a great deal. Lip service on Sunday, and then personal, business, and/or political practices that were contrary to what they professed on Sunday. What those folks on the radio paint as so great (and it really is) is not the norm in any faith community.

It's up to each of us to be the best we can (God helping us).

There is a great wealth of inspiration and teaching available within our most holy faith. Many people are like people at a huge lavish feast who starve themselves as they refuse the fare offered.

[JustaServant]

Originally Posted by Church Militant

What those folks on the radio paint as so great (and it really is) is not the norm in any faith community.

That right there is problem in most instances. Evangelical culture does not accept the reality that exists around them, so instead they put a mask on it to make it seem like it is different. What that leads to is cynicism with thier own cogregations because they see the man behind the curtain. What is often portrayed by evangelical leaders is simply not the reality. It's sad in a way, because there are many good people in these churches who spend a lifetime trying to make it work.
I knew one preacher who's favorite phrase was "fake it 'till you make it". And I fear a lot of my former evangelical friends are trying to do just that.

[Cat]

Originally Posted by MonFrere

This is a good thread. A lot of people from a lot of different perspectives are bringing up a lot of different point.

I'll add these different points.

FIRST - The older I get the more I "see" that the Holy Spirit working in people isn't very often "translated" by those people very accurately.
EXAMPLE: Cradle Catholic is moved to become more devoted to his faith. So he begins to read his bible. He notices that others don't share his new found enthusiasm. He concludes - the Catholic Church is dead. He find his evangelical friends are enthusiastic and they begin telling him everything that's wrong with the Catholic Church and BINGO - another Catholic leaves. WHY? Because the Holy Spirit did indeed move him but then - that enthusiasm set in motion a series of events that lead him out of the Church.

EXAMPLE: Cradle Catholic has a "spiritual" experience. She is just sure this experience is from God. Then everything after this in her life is also from God and depending upon her personality this can take all different paths. If the person is of a conservative nature - the church is going to hell in a hand basket and goes to one of the extremes of traditionalism. If the person is of a liberal nature they buy into the "social gospel" or become a lopsided "green Christian".

In both of these examples there may have indeed been a movement by the Holy Spirit. But WHAT FOLLOWS is what causes problems.

I think this is what St. Paul was dealing with in Corinth. I think my point here is that whenever we see a person being moved to become involved in his faith -- by all means help that person with solid spiritual advise so the movement of the Holy Spirit isn't immediately taken by the evil one. The Holy Spirit needs nurtured and directed and focused so it can produce GOOD FRUIT. It seems to me that leaving that person to his own devices leads to disaster in far too many times that I've seen in my lifetime.

The spiritually mature have GOT TO help those who are spiritually immature -- those who are under the first flush of movement of the Holy Spirit. And here is where the Catholic can really be of benefit to the evangelical if properly trained in the faith. All that enthusiasm they express is largely IMO spiritually immaturity parading around as spiritual maturity. And here is where Catholic spiritual and devotional life is absolutely essential to bring that spiritual maturity to the place where it bears GOOD FRUIT and not superficial fruit. The Catholic Church and her understanding of a growing spirituality is unlike ANYTHING in the Protestant world -- it REQUIRES on to quiet themselves, to discipline themselves and to listen to God who speaks in the still small voice of their heart and mind. Otherwise we become ADHD Christians.

The difference dramatically displayed is the difference between Fr. Frank Pavone and his superb work in fighting abortion and the "Christian" fellow who murdered that abortion doctor (forget his name) a few months ago. Most cases are not near as dramatic as this comparison -- but the pattern is definitely there for those who can see it.



The spiritually mature are people of a SOUND MIND. Or, as Jesus said -- Peace be to you -- MY PEACE I give you.

MonFrere

A lot of good thoughts in this post. Thank you.

I agree that as believers, we should all be helping each other discern the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I think that in the Catholic Church, it is very difficult to do this because there are not as many venues for Catholics to get together and talk and interact. The Mass is definitely not the place for it, although we should certainly take seriously our prayers for each other.

Most Catholics do not have it in their "culture" to attend a weekly Bible study, small group, cell group, accountability group, or even a Ladies Circle or Men's Fellowship.

For evangelicals, life consists of constant "fellowship," including all of the above, often all in one week! So there is plenty of opportunity to get to know each other and to be comfortable enough with each other to say, "I believe that this is not the Holy Spirit, but rather, it's just emotion."

I think a lot of Catholics have friends in the church, but they are social friends, drinking buddies, lunch dates, school parents, etc. I'm not sure that many of these friendships are of the type to sit around and pray together, talk about the Word of God and the Church, and help hold each other accountable for spiritual growth. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I know that in the past, there were various "societies." Also Knights. But nowadays, it seems that these are not really thriving, and if they are, they're service organizations, not contemplative fellowship times. But again, I could be wrong.

I do know that Catholics aren't lining up in crowds to join these old-fashioned societies.

I think a lot of Catholics do absolutely no spiritual "activity" outside of Mass and their private prayers. I think that it's just not part of Catholic culture to "meet" outside of Mass. Very different than evangelicals, who are always together.

So how do Catholics help each other discern the leading of the Holy Spirit if they are never together in "talking" settings? There must be a practical "Plan", not just a lot of wishing that it could happen.

[MonFrere]

Cat,

My experience is SEEK AND YOU SHALL FIND.

There are oodles of outlets for Catholics to meet each other. Since being Catholic in 2000 my wife and I have been involved in the following groups:

Opus Dei
Rosary Groups
American Needs Fatima
Priests for Life
Aid to the Church in Need
Pro-life Action League
The Catholic League
Sisters of Reparation
Domenican Sisters
Food for the Poor
Eucharistic Adoration
several missions
contributions to a local food cupboard
local parish activities and missions
Blue Army

There is no end of activities that a Catholic can get involved in if they want. You have to seek it because it's NOT the responsiblity of the parish priest to "spearhead" all this as evangelicals do. In Catholic Culture it's up to the self-motivation of the individual to involve himself in those activities that suits his personality/spirituality. The priest is there for sacramental ministry -- and believe me, this is a FULL TIME JOB. With the priest shortage the Church is going thru a certain evaluation period of making sure clerics and the laity do not "get in each others turf" and this is working itself out. But, in the history of the church there are many many examples of leadership coming from the laity and many many examples of leadership coming from the religious community. If you don't like what you see -- be a committee of one and begin to promote the change you desire. The Church certainly won't hold you back -- though it might not promote you either. The Catholic Church depends upon rugged individuals who don't depend or need a lot of support from the Church itself to urge them on and encourage them to "go go go". The Church is there to give give you Christ's sacramental grace -- and as is said at the end of Mass ---- NOW GO and serve the Lord. This is not to say that priests are not there to encourage you -- they are -- but with their responsibilities they cannot spend time to oversee all the spiritual activity of the laity. However, when these organizations need a priest to be present for a blessing or some encouraging words at a meeting -- they are there. I've seen this pattern ever since becoming Catholic.

InMyOpinion -- Our theraputic society is killing the self motivation of people. People are lead to believe they need constant encouragement and support from the outside. I think Protestant Culture buys into this much more so than Catholic Culture. But society, as a whole, is becoming very weak emotionally, thru the need of so much constant encouragement and support. Strong inner motivation given impetus from the sacramental life of Christ and the Holy Spirit isn't fueled by the approbation of people -- however, our society weakens this inner motivation in us a great deal by leading us to think it's so important.

Got to go. Work to do.

MonFrere